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It doesn’t matter what it requires, the point is as usual, the EU doesn’t take into account the unintended consequences of laws it passes when it comes to techn

It doesn’t matter what it requires, the point is as usual, the EU doesn’t take into account the unintended consequences of laws it passes when it comes to technology. That partially explains the state of the tech industry in the EU. But guess which had a more deleterious effect on Facebook ad revenue and tracking - Apples ATT or the GDPR?

MattPalmer1086 2y ago
The EU just prioritises protection for its citizens over tech industry profits. They are also not opposed to ad revenue and tracking; only that people must consent to being tracked, no sneaky spying. I'm quite happy for tech to have those restrictions.
- scarface_74 2y ago
  The EU right now is telling Meta that it is illegal to give users the option of either ads based on behavior on the platform or charging a monthly subscription fee.
  - Kbelicius 2y ago
    > The EU right now is telling Meta that it is illegal to give users the option of either ads based on behavior on the platform or charging a monthly subscription fee. And? With GDPR the EU decided that private data cannot be used as a form of payment. It can only be voluntarily given. Similarly to using ones body. You can fuck whoever you want and you can give your organs if you so choose but no business is allowed to be payed in sex or organs.
    - scarface_74 2y ago
      That’s just the problem. Meta was going to give users a choice between paying with “private data” or paying money. The EU won’t let people make that choice are you saying people in the EU are too dumb to decide for themselves? But how is your data that you give to Facebook “private” to you? Facebook isn’t sharing your data to others. Ad buyers tell Facebook “Put this ad in front of people between 25-30 who look at pages that are similar to $x on Facebook”
      - Kbelicius 2y ago
        > That’s just the problem. Meta was going to give users a choice between paying with “private data” or paying money. Well, per GDPR they aren't allowed to do that. Are they giving that option to users outside of EU? Why Not? > The EU won’t let people make that choice are you saying people in the EU are too dumb to decide for themselves? No I do not think that. What made you think that I think that? What about sex and organs? In your opinion should businesses be allowed to charge you with those? > But how is your data that you give to Facebook “private” to you? I didn't give it to them. What is so hard to understand about that? Are you saying that your browsing data isn't private to you? Care to share it?
        scarface_74 2y ago
        > Well, per GDPR they aren't allowed to do that. Are they giving that option to users outside of EU? Why Not? Because no other place thinks that their citizens are too dumb to make informed choices. > What about sex and organs? In your opinion should businesses be allowed to charge you with those? If consenting adults decide they want to have sex as a financial arrangement why not? Do you think these 25 year old “girlfriends” of 70 year old millionaires are there for the love? > I didn't give it to them. What is so hard to understand about that? When you are on Facebook’s platform and you tell them your name, interests, relationship status, check ins, and on their site, you’re not voluntarily giving them your data? > Are you saying that your browsing data isn't private to you? Care to share it? If I am using a service and giving that service information about me, yes I expect that service to have information about me. Just like right now, HN knows my email address and my comment history and where I access this site from.
        dbetteridge 2y ago
        There's a fundamental difference I think in the European mindset on private data and the American. From the European mindset: private data is not "given" to a company, the company is temporarily allowed to use the data while that person engages in a relationship with the company, the data remains owned by the person (think copyright and licensing of artistic works). American companies: think that they are granted ownership of data, just because they collect it. Therefore they cannot understand or don't want to comply with things like GDPR where they must ask to collect data and even then must only use it according to the whims of the person to whom it belongs.
  - impossiblefork 2y ago
    and it is illegal, and has been illegal for a long time. Consent for tracking must be freely given. You can't give someone something in return for it.
    - HPsquared 2y ago
      Free as in freedom, or free as in beer?
      - shortsunblack 2y ago
        Free as in free from coercion. And GDPR has clear language of 'no detriment'.
  - Dylan16807 2y ago
    Good. (And they are allowed to run as many non-tracking ads as they want.)
watwut 2y ago
I love hearing pointificarions about unintended consequences from Americans and especially from Americans in tech. No, being free to abuse others is not a positive feature. Not for tech, not for politics, not for business.
- scarface_74 2y ago
  So was it intended for the EU not to have a tech industry of note?
- Nasrudith 2y ago
  [flagged]
troupo 2y ago
> the EU doesn’t take into account the unintended consequences of laws it passes when it comes to technology. So, the companies that implement these cookie banners are entirely without blame, right? So what is your solution? Reminder: GDPR is general data protection regulation. It doesn't deal with cookies at all. It deals with tracking, collecting and keeping of user data. Doesn't matter if it's on the internet, in you phone app, or in an ofline business. Reminder: if your solution is "this should've been built into the browser", then: 1) GDPR doesn't deal with specific tech (because tech changes), 2) when governments mandates specific solutions they are called overreaching overbearing tyrants and 3) why hasn't the world's largest advertising company incidentally owning the world's most popular browser implemented a technical solution for tracking and cookie banners in the browser even though it's been 8 years already? > But guess which had a more deleterious effect on Facebook ad revenue and tracking - Apples ATT or the GDPR? In the long run most likely GDPR (and that's why Facebook is fighting EU in courts, and only fights Apple in newspaper ads), because Apple's "ask apps to not track" doesn't work. This was literally top article on HN just yesterday: "Everyone knows your location: tracking myself down through in-app ads" https://timsh.org/tracking-myself-down-through-in-app-ads/ https://timsh.org/tracking-myself-down-through-in-app-ads/ So what is your solution to that?
- scarface_74 2y ago
  Meta announced in their earnings report that ATT caused a drop in revenue after it went to effect. They made no such announcement after the GDPR. What’s my solution? There isn’t one, you know because of the way the entire internet works, the server is going to always have your IP address. For instance, neither Overcast or Apple’s podcast app actively track you or have a third party ad SDK [1]. But since they and every other real podcast player GET both the RSS feed and audio directly from the hosting provider, the hosting provider can do dynamic ad insertion based on your location by correlating it to your IP address. What I personally do avoid is not use ad supported apps because I find them janky. On my computer at least, I use the ChatGPT plug in for Chrome and it’s now my default search engine. I pay for ChatGPT and the paid version has had built in search for years.
  - troupo 2y ago

MattPalmer1086 2y ago

The EU just prioritises protection for its citizens over tech industry profits. They are also not opposed to ad revenue and tracking; only that people must consent to being tracked, no sneaky spying. I'm quite happy for tech to have those restrictions.

scarface_74 2y ago
The EU right now is telling Meta that it is illegal to give users the option of either ads based on behavior on the platform or charging a monthly subscription fee.
- Kbelicius 2y ago
  > The EU right now is telling Meta that it is illegal to give users the option of either ads based on behavior on the platform or charging a monthly subscription fee. And? With GDPR the EU decided that private data cannot be used as a form of payment. It can only be voluntarily given. Similarly to using ones body. You can fuck whoever you want and you can give your organs if you so choose but no business is allowed to be payed in sex or organs.
  - scarface_74 2y ago
    That’s just the problem. Meta was going to give users a choice between paying with “private data” or paying money. The EU won’t let people make that choice are you saying people in the EU are too dumb to decide for themselves? But how is your data that you give to Facebook “private” to you? Facebook isn’t sharing your data to others. Ad buyers tell Facebook “Put this ad in front of people between 25-30 who look at pages that are similar to $x on Facebook”
    - Kbelicius 2y ago
      > That’s just the problem. Meta was going to give users a choice between paying with “private data” or paying money. Well, per GDPR they aren't allowed to do that. Are they giving that option to users outside of EU? Why Not? > The EU won’t let people make that choice are you saying people in the EU are too dumb to decide for themselves? No I do not think that. What made you think that I think that? What about sex and organs? In your opinion should businesses be allowed to charge you with those? > But how is your data that you give to Facebook “private” to you? I didn't give it to them. What is so hard to understand about that? Are you saying that your browsing data isn't private to you? Care to share it?
      - scarface_74 2y ago
        > Well, per GDPR they aren't allowed to do that. Are they giving that option to users outside of EU? Why Not? Because no other place thinks that their citizens are too dumb to make informed choices. > What about sex and organs? In your opinion should businesses be allowed to charge you with those? If consenting adults decide they want to have sex as a financial arrangement why not? Do you think these 25 year old “girlfriends” of 70 year old millionaires are there for the love? > I didn't give it to them. What is so hard to understand about that? When you are on Facebook’s platform and you tell them your name, interests, relationship status, check ins, and on their site, you’re not voluntarily giving them your data? > Are you saying that your browsing data isn't private to you? Care to share it? If I am using a service and giving that service information about me, yes I expect that service to have information about me. Just like right now, HN knows my email address and my comment history and where I access this site from.
        dbetteridge 2y ago
        There's a fundamental difference I think in the European mindset on private data and the American. From the European mindset: private data is not "given" to a company, the company is temporarily allowed to use the data while that person engages in a relationship with the company, the data remains owned by the person (think copyright and licensing of artistic works). American companies: think that they are granted ownership of data, just because they collect it. Therefore they cannot understand or don't want to comply with things like GDPR where they must ask to collect data and even then must only use it according to the whims of the person to whom it belongs.
- impossiblefork 2y ago
  and it is illegal, and has been illegal for a long time. Consent for tracking must be freely given. You can't give someone something in return for it.
  - HPsquared 2y ago
    Free as in freedom, or free as in beer?
    - shortsunblack 2y ago
      Free as in free from coercion. And GDPR has clear language of 'no detriment'.
- Dylan16807 2y ago
  Good. (And they are allowed to run as many non-tracking ads as they want.)

watwut 2y ago

I love hearing pointificarions about unintended consequences from Americans and especially from Americans in tech. No, being free to abuse others is not a positive feature. Not for tech, not for politics, not for business.

scarface_74 2y ago
So was it intended for the EU not to have a tech industry of note?
Nasrudith 2y ago
[flagged]

troupo 2y ago

> the EU doesn’t take into account the unintended consequences of laws it passes when it comes to technology. So, the companies that implement these cookie banners are entirely without blame, right? So what is your solution? Reminder: GDPR is general data protection regulation. It doesn't deal with cookies at all. It deals with tracking, collecting and keeping of user data. Doesn't matter if it's on the internet, in you phone app, or in an ofline business. Reminder: if your solution is "this should've been built into the browser", then: 1) GDPR doesn't deal with specific tech (because tech changes), 2) when governments mandates specific solutions they are called overreaching overbearing tyrants and 3) why hasn't the world's largest advertising company incidentally owning the world's most popular browser implemented a technical solution for tracking and cookie banners in the browser even though it's been 8 years already? > But guess which had a more deleterious effect on Facebook ad revenue and tracking - Apples ATT or the GDPR? In the long run most likely GDPR (and that's why Facebook is fighting EU in courts, and only fights Apple in newspaper ads), because Apple's "ask apps to not track" doesn't work. This was literally top article on HN just yesterday: "Everyone knows your location: tracking myself down through in-app ads" https://timsh.org/tracking-myself-down-through-in-app-ads/ https://timsh.org/tracking-myself-down-through-in-app-ads/ So what is your solution to that?

scarface_74 2y ago
Meta announced in their earnings report that ATT caused a drop in revenue after it went to effect. They made no such announcement after the GDPR. What’s my solution? There isn’t one, you know because of the way the entire internet works, the server is going to always have your IP address. For instance, neither Overcast or Apple’s podcast app actively track you or have a third party ad SDK [1]. But since they and every other real podcast player GET both the RSS feed and audio directly from the hosting provider, the hosting provider can do dynamic ad insertion based on your location by correlating it to your IP address. What I personally do avoid is not use ad supported apps because I find them janky. On my computer at least, I use the ChatGPT plug in for Chrome and it’s now my default search engine. I pay for ChatGPT and the paid version has had built in search for years.
- troupo 2y ago