6 ms·

AI gives super powers because it saves you an insane amount of typing. I used to be a vim fanatic, I was very efficient but whenever I changed language there wa

by doix 2y ago

AI gives super powers because it saves you an insane amount of typing. I used to be a vim fanatic, I was very efficient but whenever I changed language there was a period where I had to spend getting efficient. Setup some new snippets for boilerplate, maybe tweak some LSP settings, save some new macros. Now in cursor I just write "extract this block of code into its own function and set up the unit tests" and it does it, with no configuration from my part. Before I'd have a snippet for the unit test boilerplate for that specific project, I'd have to figure out the mocks mysel, etc. Yes, if you use AI to just generate new code blindly and check it in without no understanding, you end up with garbage. But those people were most likely copy pasting from SO before AI, AI just made them faster.

WalterBright 2y ago
> AI gives super powers because it saves you an insane amount of typing. I must be very different, as very little of my coding time is spent typing.
- girvo 2y ago
  That's certainly the case for myself, too, though I've got roughly two fewer decades in this than yourself! But typing throughput has never been my major bottleneck. Refactoring is basically never just straight code transforms, and most of my time is spent thinking, exploring or teaching these days
- sampullman 2y ago
  It's the same for me if I'm working on something unique or interesting, or a new technology. Some kinds of coding require very little thinking, though. Converting a design to frontend interface or implementing a CRUD backend are mostly typing.
- doix 2y ago
  For me, getting what's in my head out onto the screen as fast as possible increases my productivity immensely. Maybe it's because I'm used to working with constant interruptions, but until what I want is on the screen, I can't start thinking about the next thing. E.g. if I'm making a new class, I'm not thinking about the implementation of the inner functions until I've got the skeleton of the class in place. The faster I get each stage done, the faster I work. It's why I devoted a lot of time getting efficient at vim, setting up snippets for my languages, etc. AI is the next stage of that in my mind. Maybe you can keep thinking about next steps while stuff is "solved" in your head but not on the screen. It also depends on the type of work you're doing. I've spent many hours to delete a few lines and change one, obviously AI doesn't help there.
- v20 2y ago
  I think that spending a lot of time typing is likely an architectural problem. But I do see how AI tools can be used for "oneshot" code where pondering maintainability and structure is wasted time.
yoyohello13 2y ago
See THIS is a usage that makes sense to me. Using AI to manipulate existing code like this is great. I save a ton of time by pasting in a json response and saying something like “turn this into Data classes” makes api work so fast. On the other hand I really don’t understand devs that say they are using AI for ALL their code.
- mewpmewp2 2y ago
  Copilot kind of auto completes exactly what I want most of the time. When I want something bigger I will ask Claude to give me that, but I always know what I am going to get, and I could have written it myself, it would have just taken tons of typing. I feel like I am kind of an orchestrator of sorts.
- weebull 2y ago
  So if you were to do a transformation like that you'd cut the code and paste it into a new function. Then you'd modify that function to make the abstraction work. An LLM will rewrite the code in the new form. It's not cut/paste/edit. It's a rewrite every time with the old code as reference. Each rewrite is a chance to add subtle bugs, so I take issue with the description of LLMs "working on existing code". They don't use text editors to manipulate code like we do (although it might be interesting if they did) and so will have different issues.
  - yoyohello13 2y ago
    > It's a rewrite every time with the old code as reference. As far as I'm aware, tools like Aider don't do this, it does targeted changes. The way I do it "copy/paste into chat interface", I just have the relevant context and just change the parts required.
DustinBrett 2y ago
I do agree with the filling in of text, but only when the patterns are clear. Any kind of thinking on logic or using libraries I find it still leads me astray every time.
abenga 2y ago
AI saves you an insane amount of typing, but adds an insane amount of reading, which is strictly harder than typing (at least for me).
- anonzzzies 2y ago
  Hmm, that is interesting; reading is harder? You have to read a lot of code anyway right? From team members, examples, 3rd party code/libraries? Through the decades of programming at least I became very proficient and rapidly spotting 'fishy' code and generally understanding code written by others. AI coding is nice because it is, for me, the opposite of what you have; reading the code it generates is much faster than writing it myself even though I am fast at writing it; not that fast. I have said it here before, because I would love to see some videos of HNers who complain AI gives them crap as we are getting amazing results on large and complex projects... We treat AI code the same as human code, we read it and recommend or implement fixes.
  - dagss 2y ago
    Depends ofc on the complexity of the area, but... reading someones code to me feels a bit like being given a 2D picture of a machine, then having to piece together a 3D model in my head from a single 2D photo from one projection of the machine. Then figuring out if the machine will work. When I write code, the hard part is already done -- the mental model behind the program is already in my head and and I simply dump it to keyboard. (At least for me typing speed has never been relevant as a limiting factor) But I read code I have to reassemble the mental model "behind" it in my head from the output artifact of the thought processes. Of course one needs to read code of co-workers and libraries -- but it is more draining, at least for me. Skimming it is fast but reading it thoroughly enough to find bugs by reading requires making the full mental model of the code which takes more mental effort for me at least. There is a huge difference in how I read code from trusted experienced coworkers and juniors though. AI falls in the latter category. (AI is still saving me a lot of time. Just saying I agree a lot that writing is easier than reading still.)
    - pineaux 2y ago
swiftcoder 2y ago
> AI gives super powers because it saves you an insane amount of typing I feel like I'm going a little bit more insane whenever folks say this, because one of the primary roles of a software engineer is to develop tools and abstractions to reduce or eliminate boilerplate. What kind of software are you writing, where generating boilerplate is the limiting factor (and why haven't you fixed that)?
- anonzzzies 2y ago
  > because one of the primary roles of a software engineer is to develop tools and abstractions to reduce or eliminate boilerplate. Is it? Says who? Not only do I see entire clans of folk appearing who say ; DRY sucks, just copy/paste, it's easier to read and less prone to break multiple things with one fix vs abstractions that keep functionality restricted to one location, but also; most programmers are there to implement crap their bosses say, that crap almost never includes 'create tools & abstractions' to get there. I agree with you actually, BUT this is really not what by far most people working in programming believe one of their (primary) roles entail.
porridgeraisin 2y ago
> vim > LLM I use both :) Vim has a way to run shell programs with your selection as standard input as you'd know, and it will replace the selection with stdout. So I type in my prompt e.g "mock js object array with 10 items each having name age and address" do `V!ollama run whatever` for example and it will fill it in there. Now this is blocking and I have a hacky way to run it async and fill it in based on marks later in my vimrc. Neovim really since I use jobstart(). This also works with lots of other stuff, like quick code/mock generation e.g sometimes instead of asking an LLM I just write javascript/python inline and `vap!node`/python on it.

by doix 2y ago

WalterBright 2y ago

> AI gives super powers because it saves you an insane amount of typing. I must be very different, as very little of my coding time is spent typing.

girvo 2y ago
That's certainly the case for myself, too, though I've got roughly two fewer decades in this than yourself! But typing throughput has never been my major bottleneck. Refactoring is basically never just straight code transforms, and most of my time is spent thinking, exploring or teaching these days
sampullman 2y ago
It's the same for me if I'm working on something unique or interesting, or a new technology. Some kinds of coding require very little thinking, though. Converting a design to frontend interface or implementing a CRUD backend are mostly typing.
doix 2y ago
For me, getting what's in my head out onto the screen as fast as possible increases my productivity immensely. Maybe it's because I'm used to working with constant interruptions, but until what I want is on the screen, I can't start thinking about the next thing. E.g. if I'm making a new class, I'm not thinking about the implementation of the inner functions until I've got the skeleton of the class in place. The faster I get each stage done, the faster I work. It's why I devoted a lot of time getting efficient at vim, setting up snippets for my languages, etc. AI is the next stage of that in my mind. Maybe you can keep thinking about next steps while stuff is "solved" in your head but not on the screen. It also depends on the type of work you're doing. I've spent many hours to delete a few lines and change one, obviously AI doesn't help there.
v20 2y ago
I think that spending a lot of time typing is likely an architectural problem. But I do see how AI tools can be used for "oneshot" code where pondering maintainability and structure is wasted time.

yoyohello13 2y ago

See THIS is a usage that makes sense to me. Using AI to manipulate existing code like this is great. I save a ton of time by pasting in a json response and saying something like “turn this into Data classes” makes api work so fast. On the other hand I really don’t understand devs that say they are using AI for ALL their code.

mewpmewp2 2y ago
Copilot kind of auto completes exactly what I want most of the time. When I want something bigger I will ask Claude to give me that, but I always know what I am going to get, and I could have written it myself, it would have just taken tons of typing. I feel like I am kind of an orchestrator of sorts.
weebull 2y ago
So if you were to do a transformation like that you'd cut the code and paste it into a new function. Then you'd modify that function to make the abstraction work. An LLM will rewrite the code in the new form. It's not cut/paste/edit. It's a rewrite every time with the old code as reference. Each rewrite is a chance to add subtle bugs, so I take issue with the description of LLMs "working on existing code". They don't use text editors to manipulate code like we do (although it might be interesting if they did) and so will have different issues.
- yoyohello13 2y ago
  > It's a rewrite every time with the old code as reference. As far as I'm aware, tools like Aider don't do this, it does targeted changes. The way I do it "copy/paste into chat interface", I just have the relevant context and just change the parts required.

DustinBrett 2y ago

I do agree with the filling in of text, but only when the patterns are clear. Any kind of thinking on logic or using libraries I find it still leads me astray every time.

abenga 2y ago

AI saves you an insane amount of typing, but adds an insane amount of reading, which is strictly harder than typing (at least for me).

anonzzzies 2y ago
Hmm, that is interesting; reading is harder? You have to read a lot of code anyway right? From team members, examples, 3rd party code/libraries? Through the decades of programming at least I became very proficient and rapidly spotting 'fishy' code and generally understanding code written by others. AI coding is nice because it is, for me, the opposite of what you have; reading the code it generates is much faster than writing it myself even though I am fast at writing it; not that fast. I have said it here before, because I would love to see some videos of HNers who complain AI gives them crap as we are getting amazing results on large and complex projects... We treat AI code the same as human code, we read it and recommend or implement fixes.
- dagss 2y ago
  Depends ofc on the complexity of the area, but... reading someones code to me feels a bit like being given a 2D picture of a machine, then having to piece together a 3D model in my head from a single 2D photo from one projection of the machine. Then figuring out if the machine will work. When I write code, the hard part is already done -- the mental model behind the program is already in my head and and I simply dump it to keyboard. (At least for me typing speed has never been relevant as a limiting factor) But I read code I have to reassemble the mental model "behind" it in my head from the output artifact of the thought processes. Of course one needs to read code of co-workers and libraries -- but it is more draining, at least for me. Skimming it is fast but reading it thoroughly enough to find bugs by reading requires making the full mental model of the code which takes more mental effort for me at least. There is a huge difference in how I read code from trusted experienced coworkers and juniors though. AI falls in the latter category. (AI is still saving me a lot of time. Just saying I agree a lot that writing is easier than reading still.)
  - pineaux 2y ago

swiftcoder 2y ago

> AI gives super powers because it saves you an insane amount of typing I feel like I'm going a little bit more insane whenever folks say this, because one of the primary roles of a software engineer is to develop tools and abstractions to reduce or eliminate boilerplate. What kind of software are you writing, where generating boilerplate is the limiting factor (and why haven't you fixed that)?

anonzzzies 2y ago
> because one of the primary roles of a software engineer is to develop tools and abstractions to reduce or eliminate boilerplate. Is it? Says who? Not only do I see entire clans of folk appearing who say ; DRY sucks, just copy/paste, it's easier to read and less prone to break multiple things with one fix vs abstractions that keep functionality restricted to one location, but also; most programmers are there to implement crap their bosses say, that crap almost never includes 'create tools & abstractions' to get there. I agree with you actually, BUT this is really not what by far most people working in programming believe one of their (primary) roles entail.

porridgeraisin 2y ago

> vim > LLM I use both :) Vim has a way to run shell programs with your selection as standard input as you'd know, and it will replace the selection with stdout. So I type in my prompt e.g "mock js object array with 10 items each having name age and address" do `V!ollama run whatever` for example and it will fill it in there. Now this is blocking and I have a hacky way to run it async and fill it in based on marks later in my vimrc. Neovim really since I use jobstart(). This also works with lots of other stuff, like quick code/mock generation e.g sometimes instead of asking an LLM I just write javascript/python inline and `vap!node`/python on it.