6 ms·

How is this legal?

by boredatoms 2y ago

How is this legal?

bloomingkales 2y ago
Lawyers, we need you explain the world right now. Edit: Do not flag this guys, this is our world. It’s very serious.
- lapcat 2y ago
  > Lawyers, we need you explain the world right now. You don't need a lawyer, you need an exorcist.
- do_not_redeem 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - bloomingkales 2y ago
    You want to talk about other things when Fascism is at your doorstep? Sprinkle a little bit of reality into your diet.
    - do_not_redeem 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - bloomingkales 2y ago
        This thread is also very easy to not click on. I don’t want people like you adding to voices that suggest this isn’t as fucking serious as it is.
        do_not_redeem 2y ago
        When did I suggest it's not serious? I suggested you can go be serious elsewhere. Humanity has lots of horrific things to offer which are serious yet don't belong cluttering up HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html You might want to read "What to Submit." Did you submit this because good hackers would find it interesting, and it gratifies your intellectual curiosity? Or did you submit it because you're angry and it's "fucking serious?"
  - CyberDildonics 2y ago
    Hacker news is 60% pop culture clickbait at least. Actual new stories of tech oligarchs taking over the US government is more relevant than most of the links.
  - nozzlegear 2y ago
    Tech and politics are inextricably linked in our society and daily lives. We can't avoid that truth any longer.
  - projectileboy 2y ago
    Hacker News tries to avoid political news in general, but it seems warranted in this case because Musk is a major figure in the tech industry, and also because it appears he’s using a small number of young engineers from his companies to gain access to and control over systems at OPM.
    - computerthings 2y ago
      > it appears he’s using a small number of young engineers from his companies to gain access to and control over systems at OPM. https://www.wired.com/story/elon-musk-government-young-engineers/ https://www.wired.com/story/elon-musk-government-young-engin...
TheCleric 2y ago
At this point, this is the wrong question to ask. The correct question is: if this is illegal what are the possible consequences and when would they be enforced? Musk has shown time and again whether it is legal or not isn’t very important to him. It’s what he can get away with, for how long, and what the possible penalties are.
- QuantumGood 2y ago
  Musk just has more power and audacity than most. (Reddit style: "You misspelled 'humans' as 'Musk')
rayiner 2y ago
For the same reason it was legal for Biden to stop payment on contacts for Trump’s border wall: https://www.politico.com/news/2021/04/30/biden-terminates-border-wall-construction-485123 https://www.politico.com/news/2021/04/30/biden-terminates-bo.... If Congress appropriates a specific amount of money for a specific thing, the president has limited power to not spend the money. But many cases, Congress doesn’t appropriate specific amounts of money for specific things. It appropriates a bunch of money and gives it to agencies and department. That leaves the president with a lot of discretion in how and whether to spend the money. It doesn’t help that Congress has been operating under continuing resolutions. That means Congress is shoveling money to the executive branch but hasn’t enacted former appropriations bills for many things. As to why Musk can do it. Treasury is a department, not even an independent agency. The president runs it, along with the president’s appointee the secretary of treasury. DOGE is an office within the Executive Office of the President. The President can just create offices for executive managers, like Obama did to appoint the first Chief Technology Officer: https://www.theregister.com/2009/04/20/aneesh_chopra_us_cto/ https://www.theregister.com/2009/04/20/aneesh_chopra_us_cto/.
- mech422 2y ago
  >>As to why Musk can do it. Treasury is a department, not even an independent agency. The president runs it, along with the president’s appointee the secretary of treasury. DOGE is an office within the Executive Office of the President. That doesn't give Musk or DOGE authority over it, any more then the dept. of the Interior can control what gets paid..
  - rayiner 2y ago
    I assume Musk is just sending an email to Scott Bessent who orders some Treasury employee to actually stop the payment.
    - mech422 2y ago
      I'd probably have to agree, something along those lines... However, I can't say "Govt by good ole boy network" seems proper - and its really hard to figure out what power/limits/check and balances for all this is... Musk basically took over the IT arm of the executive branch ("U.S. Digital Service") - not sure how that allows him and other people without clearances access to secure data, or to make spending decisions for other groups..
D13Fd 2y ago
If it’s not legal, who will enforce the law? The courts more or less can’t do it on their own (I.e. without the DOJ). And if the law gets enforced, won’t the president just pardon Musk?

How is this legal?

bloomingkales 2y ago

Lawyers, we need you explain the world right now. Edit: Do not flag this guys, this is our world. It’s very serious.

lapcat 2y ago
> Lawyers, we need you explain the world right now. You don't need a lawyer, you need an exorcist.
do_not_redeem 2y ago
[flagged]
- bloomingkales 2y ago
  You want to talk about other things when Fascism is at your doorstep? Sprinkle a little bit of reality into your diet.
  - do_not_redeem 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - bloomingkales 2y ago
      This thread is also very easy to not click on. I don’t want people like you adding to voices that suggest this isn’t as fucking serious as it is.
      - do_not_redeem 2y ago
        When did I suggest it's not serious? I suggested you can go be serious elsewhere. Humanity has lots of horrific things to offer which are serious yet don't belong cluttering up HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html You might want to read "What to Submit." Did you submit this because good hackers would find it interesting, and it gratifies your intellectual curiosity? Or did you submit it because you're angry and it's "fucking serious?"
- CyberDildonics 2y ago
  Hacker news is 60% pop culture clickbait at least. Actual new stories of tech oligarchs taking over the US government is more relevant than most of the links.
- nozzlegear 2y ago
  Tech and politics are inextricably linked in our society and daily lives. We can't avoid that truth any longer.
- projectileboy 2y ago
  Hacker News tries to avoid political news in general, but it seems warranted in this case because Musk is a major figure in the tech industry, and also because it appears he’s using a small number of young engineers from his companies to gain access to and control over systems at OPM.
  - computerthings 2y ago
    > it appears he’s using a small number of young engineers from his companies to gain access to and control over systems at OPM. https://www.wired.com/story/elon-musk-government-young-engineers/ https://www.wired.com/story/elon-musk-government-young-engin...

TheCleric 2y ago

At this point, this is the wrong question to ask. The correct question is: if this is illegal what are the possible consequences and when would they be enforced? Musk has shown time and again whether it is legal or not isn’t very important to him. It’s what he can get away with, for how long, and what the possible penalties are.

QuantumGood 2y ago
Musk just has more power and audacity than most. (Reddit style: "You misspelled 'humans' as 'Musk')

rayiner 2y ago

For the same reason it was legal for Biden to stop payment on contacts for Trump’s border wall: https://www.politico.com/news/2021/04/30/biden-terminates-border-wall-construction-485123 https://www.politico.com/news/2021/04/30/biden-terminates-bo.... If Congress appropriates a specific amount of money for a specific thing, the president has limited power to not spend the money. But many cases, Congress doesn’t appropriate specific amounts of money for specific things. It appropriates a bunch of money and gives it to agencies and department. That leaves the president with a lot of discretion in how and whether to spend the money. It doesn’t help that Congress has been operating under continuing resolutions. That means Congress is shoveling money to the executive branch but hasn’t enacted former appropriations bills for many things. As to why Musk can do it. Treasury is a department, not even an independent agency. The president runs it, along with the president’s appointee the secretary of treasury. DOGE is an office within the Executive Office of the President. The President can just create offices for executive managers, like Obama did to appoint the first Chief Technology Officer: https://www.theregister.com/2009/04/20/aneesh_chopra_us_cto/ https://www.theregister.com/2009/04/20/aneesh_chopra_us_cto/.

mech422 2y ago
>>As to why Musk can do it. Treasury is a department, not even an independent agency. The president runs it, along with the president’s appointee the secretary of treasury. DOGE is an office within the Executive Office of the President. That doesn't give Musk or DOGE authority over it, any more then the dept. of the Interior can control what gets paid..
- rayiner 2y ago
  I assume Musk is just sending an email to Scott Bessent who orders some Treasury employee to actually stop the payment.
  - mech422 2y ago
    I'd probably have to agree, something along those lines... However, I can't say "Govt by good ole boy network" seems proper - and its really hard to figure out what power/limits/check and balances for all this is... Musk basically took over the IT arm of the executive branch ("U.S. Digital Service") - not sure how that allows him and other people without clearances access to secure data, or to make spending decisions for other groups..

D13Fd 2y ago

If it’s not legal, who will enforce the law? The courts more or less can’t do it on their own (I.e. without the DOJ). And if the law gets enforced, won’t the president just pardon Musk?