5 ms·

I feel obliged to point out that while flags do not represent languages perfectly, there is no good, user-facing symbolic alternative for languages. No, people

by troad 2y ago

I feel obliged to point out that while flags do not represent languages perfectly, there is no good, user-facing symbolic alternative for languages. No, people don't know the ISO codes for their languages. No, you can't use the full name, since some languages have very long names. No, a single 'languages' icon isn't enough, you often need to symbolically represent individual languages. For the most common languages, flags are fine. Edit: I'm amused by the amount of replies that assume the only context that ever requires symbolic language representation is websites. Awesome, how do I add one of your JavaScript language drop-downs to a physical product label? Or an airline steward's name tag?

braiamp 2y ago
The browser or the host system usually informs you about the language. Apple and Google solved the rest by using geofence data. If you have a menu/screen to select the language, you can write as much as you want and have overflow for the long list. Order them by current language based on collation, and done. People want "language" to be too accessible when it doesn't need to be. Also, see amazon.
xdennis 2y ago
> No, you can't use the full name, since some languages have very long names. Yes, every language has a name and you can use that. If you prefer an imprecise flag over the actual name of the language then what you're saying is that you prefer style over substance. There's always space to show the language name.
- troad 2y ago
  Why did you use letters to send your reply? Letters are a symbolic representation of language, but they are imprecise. I don't know the prosody of your utterance, what tone you used, what accent you're speaking, etc. This is unacceptable and I am very offended. /s Symbols are useful. You can quibble over the symbols chosen (they don't seem to do a lot of physical weighing in courts?), but that is fundamentally besides the point, which is 'how do I convey this widely understood concept in a limited amount of space?'.
- closewith 2y ago
  Are you seriously arguing against the use of ideograms? User interfaces without them would be unusable.
  - zdragnar 2y ago
    Many languages don't correspond to flag ideograms, and many flags don't correspond to a single language. Ideograms are fine so long as they can be replaced with a canonical word or phrase and still make sense. Flags for languages fails that in many cases around the world- if I want to select Quebecoise French, neither the Canadian, French, or Quebec Province flags are appropriate. Likewise, Switzerland has no official language, and many countries such as Belgium have multiple.
  - layer8 2y ago
    Not the GP, but ideograms/pictograms are overused, half of the time one has no idea what they are supposed to mean. That was already bad in desktop interfaces where you would at least get a tooltip when hovering the mouse over it, but that has gone out of fashion as well.
- zmgsabst 2y ago
  There’s really not. I frequently travel in places where I don’t speak the primary language — and having to hunt down a menu in a language I can’t read sounds a lot worse than having a flag I know visible on the main page.
bawolff 2y ago
> No, people don't know the ISO codes for their languages. As a canadian, i know what EN means. However when sites use flags its a mystery. Am i supposed to pick canada or is that "canadian french". Maybe im supposed to pick the american flag, but eww feel like a traitor and i want the u's in my words. Is it the british flag? I have no idea. Flags for languages are stupid. Not to mention for all those languages that are not the majority language in any country.
- troad 2y ago
  > As a canadian, i know what EN means. However when sites use flags its a mystery. As an Australian, I somehow manage not to be entirely baffled by a US/UK flag icon in a language screen. > Maybe im supposed to pick the american flag, but eww feel like a traitor and i want the u's in my words. The purpose of a language selection screen is not to stroke your ego?
  - bawolff 2y ago
    > As an Australian, I somehow manage not to be entirely baffled by a US/UK flag icon in a language screen. As an australian, when was the last time the Australian flag was the incorrect choice for you? I'm going to guess never.
    - boredatoms 2y ago
      When is there ever an Australian flag to choose
  - scrollaway 2y ago
    You’re saying this on HN, where plenty of people work on software affecting tens of millions of people. You wanna leave your phone number and explain your “well I ain’t offended” strategy to the next PM who’ll ask you about their users in Taiwan? The Russian speakers in Ukraine who saw their homes demolished by those who brandish the flag you’re not offended by? Maybe I should just invite you to my country of Belgium (four languages, not one of them being “the Belgian one”) for you to see what people here routinely think of those who can’t imagine the simple differences :)
mikedelfino 2y ago
Google Translator lists languages' names, and the list is pretty reasonable. I'm confident that designers could make it work even on interfaces where the language is a more subtle option.
culi 2y ago
Places like Wikipedia have a list of languages spelled out in the orthography most used for the written version of that language. I don't see what the problem with that is. Universally understandable to anyone who knows the written version of their language
- do_not_redeem 2y ago
  That's great unless you're scrolling through 200 languages trying to find yours and can't figure out how they're sorted. Remind me again, does မြန်မာစကား come before or after चम्बयाळी ?
  - culi 2y ago
    Ctrl + F And it doesn't have to have every single language. There's over 7,000 languages in the world. It just needs to have languages for which content exists. For the vast vast majority of Wikipedia articles there are less than 10 languages available
  - kevin_thibedeau 2y ago
    The sites showing flags for translations usually have no more than a half dozen.
  - marc_abonce 2y ago
    I like how Wikipedia mitigates that problem by placing "Suggested languages" at the top (I think the top choices are inferred from either the Accept-Language HTTP header or the most common languages from the user's country) and below that there's a list of "Worldwide" languages which include the most used languages in the world, and finally the rest of the languages are grouped by continent. There's also a search bar for filtering and it works with either the native or foreign name of the language. So, for example, typing "Finnish", "Suomi" or "Fines" (the latter is even misspelled, should be "Finés") will all filter out the right language. Of course, there may be an edge case that's missing, but it's as close as perfect as it can get without reading the user's mind.
  - ttepasse 2y ago

by troad 2y ago

braiamp 2y ago

The browser or the host system usually informs you about the language. Apple and Google solved the rest by using geofence data. If you have a menu/screen to select the language, you can write as much as you want and have overflow for the long list. Order them by current language based on collation, and done. People want "language" to be too accessible when it doesn't need to be. Also, see amazon.

xdennis 2y ago

> No, you can't use the full name, since some languages have very long names. Yes, every language has a name and you can use that. If you prefer an imprecise flag over the actual name of the language then what you're saying is that you prefer style over substance. There's always space to show the language name.

troad 2y ago
Why did you use letters to send your reply? Letters are a symbolic representation of language, but they are imprecise. I don't know the prosody of your utterance, what tone you used, what accent you're speaking, etc. This is unacceptable and I am very offended. /s Symbols are useful. You can quibble over the symbols chosen (they don't seem to do a lot of physical weighing in courts?), but that is fundamentally besides the point, which is 'how do I convey this widely understood concept in a limited amount of space?'.
closewith 2y ago
Are you seriously arguing against the use of ideograms? User interfaces without them would be unusable.
- zdragnar 2y ago
  Many languages don't correspond to flag ideograms, and many flags don't correspond to a single language. Ideograms are fine so long as they can be replaced with a canonical word or phrase and still make sense. Flags for languages fails that in many cases around the world- if I want to select Quebecoise French, neither the Canadian, French, or Quebec Province flags are appropriate. Likewise, Switzerland has no official language, and many countries such as Belgium have multiple.
- layer8 2y ago
  Not the GP, but ideograms/pictograms are overused, half of the time one has no idea what they are supposed to mean. That was already bad in desktop interfaces where you would at least get a tooltip when hovering the mouse over it, but that has gone out of fashion as well.
zmgsabst 2y ago
There’s really not. I frequently travel in places where I don’t speak the primary language — and having to hunt down a menu in a language I can’t read sounds a lot worse than having a flag I know visible on the main page.

bawolff 2y ago

> No, people don't know the ISO codes for their languages. As a canadian, i know what EN means. However when sites use flags its a mystery. Am i supposed to pick canada or is that "canadian french". Maybe im supposed to pick the american flag, but eww feel like a traitor and i want the u's in my words. Is it the british flag? I have no idea. Flags for languages are stupid. Not to mention for all those languages that are not the majority language in any country.

troad 2y ago
> As a canadian, i know what EN means. However when sites use flags its a mystery. As an Australian, I somehow manage not to be entirely baffled by a US/UK flag icon in a language screen. > Maybe im supposed to pick the american flag, but eww feel like a traitor and i want the u's in my words. The purpose of a language selection screen is not to stroke your ego?
- bawolff 2y ago
  > As an Australian, I somehow manage not to be entirely baffled by a US/UK flag icon in a language screen. As an australian, when was the last time the Australian flag was the incorrect choice for you? I'm going to guess never.
  - boredatoms 2y ago
    When is there ever an Australian flag to choose
- scrollaway 2y ago
  You’re saying this on HN, where plenty of people work on software affecting tens of millions of people. You wanna leave your phone number and explain your “well I ain’t offended” strategy to the next PM who’ll ask you about their users in Taiwan? The Russian speakers in Ukraine who saw their homes demolished by those who brandish the flag you’re not offended by? Maybe I should just invite you to my country of Belgium (four languages, not one of them being “the Belgian one”) for you to see what people here routinely think of those who can’t imagine the simple differences :)

mikedelfino 2y ago

Google Translator lists languages' names, and the list is pretty reasonable. I'm confident that designers could make it work even on interfaces where the language is a more subtle option.

culi 2y ago

Places like Wikipedia have a list of languages spelled out in the orthography most used for the written version of that language. I don't see what the problem with that is. Universally understandable to anyone who knows the written version of their language

do_not_redeem 2y ago
That's great unless you're scrolling through 200 languages trying to find yours and can't figure out how they're sorted. Remind me again, does မြန်မာစကား come before or after चम्बयाळी ?
- culi 2y ago
  Ctrl + F And it doesn't have to have every single language. There's over 7,000 languages in the world. It just needs to have languages for which content exists. For the vast vast majority of Wikipedia articles there are less than 10 languages available
- kevin_thibedeau 2y ago
  The sites showing flags for translations usually have no more than a half dozen.
- marc_abonce 2y ago
  I like how Wikipedia mitigates that problem by placing "Suggested languages" at the top (I think the top choices are inferred from either the Accept-Language HTTP header or the most common languages from the user's country) and below that there's a list of "Worldwide" languages which include the most used languages in the world, and finally the rest of the languages are grouped by continent. There's also a search bar for filtering and it works with either the native or foreign name of the language. So, for example, typing "Finnish", "Suomi" or "Fines" (the latter is even misspelled, should be "Finés") will all filter out the right language. Of course, there may be an edge case that's missing, but it's as close as perfect as it can get without reading the user's mind.
- ttepasse 2y ago