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You're not too far from the truth -- most mapping services render political boundaries differently based on where you're accessing the site from.

by jey 2y ago

strictnein 2y ago
The Kashmir region north of New Delhi is an interesting example. Even in the US, Google basically says you're on your own, but here's a collection of dotted lines that may or may not be the actual borders.
int_19h 2y ago
Or just refuse to commit. E.g. Google Maps, to this day, will not show the country for any Crimean city when you click on it to bring up its info panel. If you do this with e.g. Kherson, you get "Kherson, Kherson Oblast, Ukraine". But if you do it with Sevastopol, you only get the city name, not the region & country. It also shows dotted borders between Crimea and both Russia and Ukraine.
- IshKebab 2y ago
  Well... that kind of makes sense no? What do you think it should say?
  - LAC-Tech 2y ago
    I want maps to show reality. Not who they *think* should be in control of Taiwan or Transnistria, but who actually is.
    - lmm 2y ago
      What does "actually in control" mean? When the IRA set up a checkpoint in Rosslea, should that have moved the border on the map? When there are disputes over uninhabited islands, do you want it to show whoever visited first? Obviously these are small examples, but the same issues apply to full-scale civil wars. You'd also be essentially legitimising the right of conquest if as soon as country A invades country B you move the border on the map. That would be pretty counterproductive.
      - jim-jim-jim 2y ago
        > You'd also be essentially legitimising the right of conquest Documenting reality doesn't endorse what happened. Istanbul was Constantinople. Shit happens. If I'm travelling, I'd much rather the flags and borders reflect the situation on the ground instead of making meaningless humanitarian gestures.
        lmm 2y ago
        It's the opposite of meaningless. Delegitimising wars of conquest massively reduced them and was a big part of why the 20th century was so much more peaceful on the whole (yes, even with the giant wars that did take place) than those before it.
        IshKebab 2y ago
        That's a very big and dubious claim! I'd like to see some evidence for that.
        rpd9803 2y ago
        Even Old New York used to be call New Amsterdam..
        makeitdouble 2y ago
        > Documenting reality The issue is reality not being settled or agreed upon. For disputed territories there is effectively two realities both officially backed by sovereign countries. You can come up with some arbitrary criteria to split the difference, but your reality would break when you effectively set foot in a spot that works under the competing assumption.
        LAC-Tech 2y ago
        The issue is reality not being settled or agreed upon. For disputed territories there is effectively two realities both officially backed by sovereign countries. No, in a disputed territory there's one reality, and 1..n delusions.
- andix 2y ago
  Isn’t Google Maps blocked in Russia anyway? Crimea is a different story, as many countries recognize it to be in some kind of limbo and treat it as neither Russian nor Ukrainian. I think Yandex (Russian Google) removed borders completely from their maps. Also because it’s impossible to figure out where the Russian government would like them to be. Might change on a daily basis. Google maps added the „gulf of America“ to their US version, because anywhere else it’s still the Gulf of Mexico (even in iOS autocorrect, it changed it correctly to uppercase).
  - riffraff 2y ago
    the "gulf of america" thing is Google pandering to Trump, they originally had a policy of only using the popular name in a given locale. > if a ruler announced that henceforth the Pacific Ocean would be named after her mother, we would not add that placemark unless and until the name came into common usage. https://publicpolicy.googleblog.com/2008/04/how-google-determines-names-for-bodies.html https://publicpolicy.googleblog.com/2008/04/how-google-deter...
    - neuronexmachina 2y ago
      I think they mostly started with geolocation-dependent names in the early 2010s, e.g. Kashmir and Palestine.
      - riffraff 2y ago
        that's different, they had location-dependent names at the time of this article too, the issue is specifically about the fact that even if you have location-dependent names you'd use the name that is commonly used in that location, not an arbitrary regulation name.
        owlninja 2y ago
        I thought they used the Geographic Names Information System (GNIS) from the USGS. If this buffoonery does pass, it will reflect in the government official data source - and thus on Google maps?

You're not too far from the truth -- most mapping services render political boundaries differently based on where you're accessing the site from.

by jey 2y ago

You're not too far from the truth -- most mapping services render political boundaries differently based on where you're accessing the site from.

strictnein 2y ago

The Kashmir region north of New Delhi is an interesting example. Even in the US, Google basically says you're on your own, but here's a collection of dotted lines that may or may not be the actual borders.

int_19h 2y ago

Or just refuse to commit. E.g. Google Maps, to this day, will not show the country for any Crimean city when you click on it to bring up its info panel. If you do this with e.g. Kherson, you get "Kherson, Kherson Oblast, Ukraine". But if you do it with Sevastopol, you only get the city name, not the region & country. It also shows dotted borders between Crimea and both Russia and Ukraine.

IshKebab 2y ago
Well... that kind of makes sense no? What do you think it should say?
- LAC-Tech 2y ago
  I want maps to show reality. Not who they *think* should be in control of Taiwan or Transnistria, but who actually is.
  - lmm 2y ago
    What does "actually in control" mean? When the IRA set up a checkpoint in Rosslea, should that have moved the border on the map? When there are disputes over uninhabited islands, do you want it to show whoever visited first? Obviously these are small examples, but the same issues apply to full-scale civil wars. You'd also be essentially legitimising the right of conquest if as soon as country A invades country B you move the border on the map. That would be pretty counterproductive.
    - jim-jim-jim 2y ago
      > You'd also be essentially legitimising the right of conquest Documenting reality doesn't endorse what happened. Istanbul was Constantinople. Shit happens. If I'm travelling, I'd much rather the flags and borders reflect the situation on the ground instead of making meaningless humanitarian gestures.
      - lmm 2y ago
        It's the opposite of meaningless. Delegitimising wars of conquest massively reduced them and was a big part of why the 20th century was so much more peaceful on the whole (yes, even with the giant wars that did take place) than those before it.
        IshKebab 2y ago
        That's a very big and dubious claim! I'd like to see some evidence for that.
      - rpd9803 2y ago
        Even Old New York used to be call New Amsterdam..
      - makeitdouble 2y ago
        > Documenting reality The issue is reality not being settled or agreed upon. For disputed territories there is effectively two realities both officially backed by sovereign countries. You can come up with some arbitrary criteria to split the difference, but your reality would break when you effectively set foot in a spot that works under the competing assumption.
        LAC-Tech 2y ago
        The issue is reality not being settled or agreed upon. For disputed territories there is effectively two realities both officially backed by sovereign countries. No, in a disputed territory there's one reality, and 1..n delusions.
andix 2y ago
Isn’t Google Maps blocked in Russia anyway? Crimea is a different story, as many countries recognize it to be in some kind of limbo and treat it as neither Russian nor Ukrainian. I think Yandex (Russian Google) removed borders completely from their maps. Also because it’s impossible to figure out where the Russian government would like them to be. Might change on a daily basis. Google maps added the „gulf of America“ to their US version, because anywhere else it’s still the Gulf of Mexico (even in iOS autocorrect, it changed it correctly to uppercase).
- riffraff 2y ago
  the "gulf of america" thing is Google pandering to Trump, they originally had a policy of only using the popular name in a given locale. > if a ruler announced that henceforth the Pacific Ocean would be named after her mother, we would not add that placemark unless and until the name came into common usage. https://publicpolicy.googleblog.com/2008/04/how-google-determines-names-for-bodies.html https://publicpolicy.googleblog.com/2008/04/how-google-deter...
  - neuronexmachina 2y ago
    I think they mostly started with geolocation-dependent names in the early 2010s, e.g. Kashmir and Palestine.
    - riffraff 2y ago
      that's different, they had location-dependent names at the time of this article too, the issue is specifically about the fact that even if you have location-dependent names you'd use the name that is commonly used in that location, not an arbitrary regulation name.
      - owlninja 2y ago
        I thought they used the Geographic Names Information System (GNIS) from the USGS. If this buffoonery does pass, it will reflect in the government official data source - and thus on Google maps?