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This whole rabbit hole of rationalism, less wrong, and ziz feels like a fever dream to me. Roaming trans veganist tatical death squads shooting border officers

This whole rabbit hole of rationalism, less wrong, and ziz feels like a fever dream to me. Roaming trans veganist tatical death squads shooting border officers and stabbing 80 year olds with swords. This is the kind of thing where it is warranted that the feds gets every single wiretap, interception, and surveillance possible on everyone involved in the zizian movement.

nejsjsjsbsb 2y ago
Split the beliefs from the crime. A bunch of murderers were caught. Given they are dangerous killers, one killing a witness and one faking their death yeah they should get warrants.
- __turbobrew__ 2y ago
  It appears the ven diagram of the beliefs and crimes overlap quite a bit. Sometimes the beliefs are that certain crimes should be committed. This is a free country (disputably) and you should be able to think and say whatever you want, but I also think it is reasonable for law enforcement in the investigation of said crimes to also investigate links to other members in the movement.
  - nejsjsjsbsb 2y ago
    Probable cause is the key term here. Cops can do a lot without it. They can choose what leads to follow. But not sure what you are suggesting with respect to wiretapping.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - concordDance 2y ago
    > It appears the ven diagram of the beliefs and crimes overlap quite a bit. There are hundreds of thousands of rationalists (to a greater or lesser extent). Very few go shoot people.
    - __turbobrew__ 2y ago
      I didn’t say “rationalist” should be investigated, I said “zizian” which is a small personality cult of ziz.
    - victorbjorklund 2y ago
      How many nazis are there in the world? Millions? How many have shoot people? A handful
    - kragen 2y ago
      The Zizians are the ones whose beliefs said that shooting people was justified, not the "rationalists".
  - Muromec 2y ago
    > but I also think it is reasonable for law enforcement in the investigation of said crimes to also investigate links to other members in the movement. It doesn't work. Every single time a radicalized member of the marginalized community does this kind of crime, the numbered-letter-agency dutifully reports, that they knew the person to be radicalized, but had nothing to act on, because a lot of people have weird violence-approving beliefs, talk about them openly or with friends and very few actually hijack a Boeing or two. Those who plan to do things also happen to learn about op-sec mistakes of those caught before them. Israel knew about Hamas, and the russian empire of 19th century knew about anarchists. Pouring a lot of resources into suppressing all of that didn't do jack shit in the long term.
- liftIO 2y ago
  > Split the beliefs from the crime. Pretty hard to do that when the beliefs explicitly endorse murder. Ziz used to run a blog on which she made thinly veiled death threats, argued for a personal philosophy of hair-trigger escalation and massive retribution, raged at the rationalist community for not agreeing with her on that philosophy and on theories of transness, and considered most people on Earth to be irredeemably evil for eating meat.
- victorbjorklund 2y ago
  Can you really split the beliefs of the nazi movement in germany in 1940 from the crimes the believers committed?
gaze 2y ago
[flagged]
- mvdtnz 2y ago
  Got a source for that claim?
  - zoklet-enjoyer 2y ago
    Elon Musk, Peter Thiel
- nejsjsjsbsb 2y ago
  Your about tells me you could make this comment way more specifically and with evidence.
Muromec 2y ago
>This whole rabbit hole of rationalism, less wrong, and ziz feels like a fever dream to me. Roaming trans veganist tatical death squads shooting border officers and stabbing 80 year olds with swords. I don't exactly see how it's different from a group of habitual alcoholics discussing politics and having a fatal disagreement, which is a normal day of the week in any police department with enough demographics to have this sort of low-effort low-gain crime. It's more scandalous because of details and people involved are more interesting, but everyone will forget about it after a week, as they don't matter.
- Levitz 2y ago
  >I don't exactly see how it's different from a group of habitual alcoholics discussing politics and having a fatal disagreement Intent, premeditation, possibly being designated a terrorist group depending on other factors. Big differences.
anon84873628 2y ago
Calling them a roaming band or "tactical death squad" is giving far too much credit. It is a handful of crazy people who convinced themselves that a couple murders would solve their problems. In particular the attack on border patrol was obviously random and illogical. And the fact that no one was convicted of the Pennsylvania murders seems to reflect more on the police and prosecutors than the intelligence of the perpetrators.
- CamperBob2 2y ago
  Speaking of random and illogical, what prompted the Border Patrol to stop their car in the first place, I wonder? None of the news stories have elaborated on that.
  - umeshunni 2y ago
    The FBI report says it was a traffic stop. The milemarker 168 seems to be about 10 miles from the Canadian border. https://www.fbi.gov/contact-us/field-offices/albany/news/fbi-albany-update-on-federal-investigation-in-connection-with-the-fatal-shooting-involving-a-us-border-patrol-officer-in-coventry-vermont https://www.fbi.gov/contact-us/field-offices/albany/news/fbi... More information from the police report:https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wycOK3UbaQ9JWZuvo2gpZiDT-0teSWgN/view https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wycOK3UbaQ9JWZuvo2gpZiDT-0t... On January 20, 2025, at approximately 3:00 pm, an on-duty, uniformed United States Border Patrol (USBP) Agent initiated a stop of a blue 2015 Toyota Prius Hatchback with North Carolina license plate number KLA2040 to conduct an immigration inspection as it was driving southbound on Interstate 91 in Coventry, Vermont. The registered owner of the vehicle, Felix Baukholt, a citizen of Germany, appeared to have an expired visa in a Department of Homeland Security database. YOUNGBLUT was driving the Prius, and Baukholt was the lone passenger in the Prius. Multiple uniformed Border Patrol Agents were present at the stop in three USBP vehicles with emergency lights illuminated. (later in the same document) Investigators had been performing periodic surveillance of Baukholt and YOUNGBLUT since on or about Tuesday, January 14, 2025. A concerned citizen-an employee of a hotel in Lyndonville, Vermont--contacted law enforcement after a male and a female had checked into the hotel to report concerns about them, including that they appeared to be dressed in all-black tactical style clothing with protective equipment, with the woman, later identified as YOUNGBLUT, carrying an apparent firearm in an exposed-carry holster. Investigators with VSP and Homeland Security Investigations attempted to initiate a consensual conversation with Baukholt and YOUNGBLUT, but they declined to have an extended conversation, claiming that they were in the vicinity to look at purchasing property. After the contact with law enforcement, the pair checked out of the Lyndonville hotel on the afternoon of January 14, 2025. Investigators later observed the pair in similar tactical dress on Sunday, January 19, 2025, walking in downtown Newport; YOUNGBLUT was observed carrying a handgun at that time.
concordDance 2y ago
Conflating ziz and less wrong feels a bit like conflating Aiden Hale with the LGBTQ movement or the Branch Davidians with Christianity.
- larsiusprime 2y ago
  Or even just the Branch Davidians and the seventh day adventists, of whom the branch Davidians were an offshoot. I’ve read a couple rationalist blogs for over a decade and this past week is the first I’ve ever heard of these “Zizians”
mobiledev2014 2y ago
Yes, thank you for saying so- reading about all this, but especially all the people chiming in who already knew about a lot of it? The fact that the founder of LessWrong coined the term “alignment,” a subject I’ve read about many times… it feels like learning lizard people always walked among us
- FeepingCreature 2y ago
  Honestly it feels like this is the first time people are realizing that six degrees of separation means that crazy people can usually be connected to influential people. In this case they're just realizing it with the rationalists.
numpad0 2y ago
At least it's clear that they aren't receiving proper sword handling training. Good grief.
Der_Einzige 2y ago
Rest assured, I'm pretty sure among the easiest ways to make yourself the target of surveillance is to do anything interesting at all involving technology. All serious AI researchers, for example, should assume that they are the victims of this.

nejsjsjsbsb 2y ago

Split the beliefs from the crime. A bunch of murderers were caught. Given they are dangerous killers, one killing a witness and one faking their death yeah they should get warrants.

__turbobrew__ 2y ago
It appears the ven diagram of the beliefs and crimes overlap quite a bit. Sometimes the beliefs are that certain crimes should be committed. This is a free country (disputably) and you should be able to think and say whatever you want, but I also think it is reasonable for law enforcement in the investigation of said crimes to also investigate links to other members in the movement.
- nejsjsjsbsb 2y ago
  Probable cause is the key term here. Cops can do a lot without it. They can choose what leads to follow. But not sure what you are suggesting with respect to wiretapping.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- concordDance 2y ago
  > It appears the ven diagram of the beliefs and crimes overlap quite a bit. There are hundreds of thousands of rationalists (to a greater or lesser extent). Very few go shoot people.
  - __turbobrew__ 2y ago
    I didn’t say “rationalist” should be investigated, I said “zizian” which is a small personality cult of ziz.
  - victorbjorklund 2y ago
    How many nazis are there in the world? Millions? How many have shoot people? A handful
  - kragen 2y ago
    The Zizians are the ones whose beliefs said that shooting people was justified, not the "rationalists".
- Muromec 2y ago
  > but I also think it is reasonable for law enforcement in the investigation of said crimes to also investigate links to other members in the movement. It doesn't work. Every single time a radicalized member of the marginalized community does this kind of crime, the numbered-letter-agency dutifully reports, that they knew the person to be radicalized, but had nothing to act on, because a lot of people have weird violence-approving beliefs, talk about them openly or with friends and very few actually hijack a Boeing or two. Those who plan to do things also happen to learn about op-sec mistakes of those caught before them. Israel knew about Hamas, and the russian empire of 19th century knew about anarchists. Pouring a lot of resources into suppressing all of that didn't do jack shit in the long term.
liftIO 2y ago
> Split the beliefs from the crime. Pretty hard to do that when the beliefs explicitly endorse murder. Ziz used to run a blog on which she made thinly veiled death threats, argued for a personal philosophy of hair-trigger escalation and massive retribution, raged at the rationalist community for not agreeing with her on that philosophy and on theories of transness, and considered most people on Earth to be irredeemably evil for eating meat.
victorbjorklund 2y ago
Can you really split the beliefs of the nazi movement in germany in 1940 from the crimes the believers committed?

gaze 2y ago

[flagged]

mvdtnz 2y ago
Got a source for that claim?
- zoklet-enjoyer 2y ago
  Elon Musk, Peter Thiel
nejsjsjsbsb 2y ago
Your about tells me you could make this comment way more specifically and with evidence.

Muromec 2y ago

>This whole rabbit hole of rationalism, less wrong, and ziz feels like a fever dream to me. Roaming trans veganist tatical death squads shooting border officers and stabbing 80 year olds with swords. I don't exactly see how it's different from a group of habitual alcoholics discussing politics and having a fatal disagreement, which is a normal day of the week in any police department with enough demographics to have this sort of low-effort low-gain crime. It's more scandalous because of details and people involved are more interesting, but everyone will forget about it after a week, as they don't matter.

Levitz 2y ago
>I don't exactly see how it's different from a group of habitual alcoholics discussing politics and having a fatal disagreement Intent, premeditation, possibly being designated a terrorist group depending on other factors. Big differences.

anon84873628 2y ago

Calling them a roaming band or "tactical death squad" is giving far too much credit. It is a handful of crazy people who convinced themselves that a couple murders would solve their problems. In particular the attack on border patrol was obviously random and illogical. And the fact that no one was convicted of the Pennsylvania murders seems to reflect more on the police and prosecutors than the intelligence of the perpetrators.

CamperBob2 2y ago
Speaking of random and illogical, what prompted the Border Patrol to stop their car in the first place, I wonder? None of the news stories have elaborated on that.
- umeshunni 2y ago
  The FBI report says it was a traffic stop. The milemarker 168 seems to be about 10 miles from the Canadian border. https://www.fbi.gov/contact-us/field-offices/albany/news/fbi-albany-update-on-federal-investigation-in-connection-with-the-fatal-shooting-involving-a-us-border-patrol-officer-in-coventry-vermont https://www.fbi.gov/contact-us/field-offices/albany/news/fbi... More information from the police report:https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wycOK3UbaQ9JWZuvo2gpZiDT-0teSWgN/view https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wycOK3UbaQ9JWZuvo2gpZiDT-0t... On January 20, 2025, at approximately 3:00 pm, an on-duty, uniformed United States Border Patrol (USBP) Agent initiated a stop of a blue 2015 Toyota Prius Hatchback with North Carolina license plate number KLA2040 to conduct an immigration inspection as it was driving southbound on Interstate 91 in Coventry, Vermont. The registered owner of the vehicle, Felix Baukholt, a citizen of Germany, appeared to have an expired visa in a Department of Homeland Security database. YOUNGBLUT was driving the Prius, and Baukholt was the lone passenger in the Prius. Multiple uniformed Border Patrol Agents were present at the stop in three USBP vehicles with emergency lights illuminated. (later in the same document) Investigators had been performing periodic surveillance of Baukholt and YOUNGBLUT since on or about Tuesday, January 14, 2025. A concerned citizen-an employee of a hotel in Lyndonville, Vermont--contacted law enforcement after a male and a female had checked into the hotel to report concerns about them, including that they appeared to be dressed in all-black tactical style clothing with protective equipment, with the woman, later identified as YOUNGBLUT, carrying an apparent firearm in an exposed-carry holster. Investigators with VSP and Homeland Security Investigations attempted to initiate a consensual conversation with Baukholt and YOUNGBLUT, but they declined to have an extended conversation, claiming that they were in the vicinity to look at purchasing property. After the contact with law enforcement, the pair checked out of the Lyndonville hotel on the afternoon of January 14, 2025. Investigators later observed the pair in similar tactical dress on Sunday, January 19, 2025, walking in downtown Newport; YOUNGBLUT was observed carrying a handgun at that time.

concordDance 2y ago

Conflating ziz and less wrong feels a bit like conflating Aiden Hale with the LGBTQ movement or the Branch Davidians with Christianity.

larsiusprime 2y ago
Or even just the Branch Davidians and the seventh day adventists, of whom the branch Davidians were an offshoot. I’ve read a couple rationalist blogs for over a decade and this past week is the first I’ve ever heard of these “Zizians”

mobiledev2014 2y ago

Yes, thank you for saying so- reading about all this, but especially all the people chiming in who already knew about a lot of it? The fact that the founder of LessWrong coined the term “alignment,” a subject I’ve read about many times… it feels like learning lizard people always walked among us

FeepingCreature 2y ago
Honestly it feels like this is the first time people are realizing that six degrees of separation means that crazy people can usually be connected to influential people. In this case they're just realizing it with the rationalists.

numpad0 2y ago

At least it's clear that they aren't receiving proper sword handling training. Good grief.

Der_Einzige 2y ago

Rest assured, I'm pretty sure among the easiest ways to make yourself the target of surveillance is to do anything interesting at all involving technology. All serious AI researchers, for example, should assume that they are the victims of this.