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Swift is a nice language. I'm glad to see it being released from the clutches of Apple. I can only imagine how large of a task this is. I hope some day to be ab

Swift is a nice language. I'm glad to see it being released from the clutches of Apple. I can only imagine how large of a task this is. I hope some day to be able to use it. The last time I tried a cross-platform project with it I switched languages due to `URLSession.shared.data` (a network request) being unable to compile on Linux.

isodev 2y ago
Is it really being released? Although some parts of the language and build chains are technically open source (as in, you can see the code), the project is still completely controlled by Apple at the top.
- cvwright 2y ago
  They have also been working on a completely open source version of the Foundation library for use on Linux and other platforms. (IIRC the URLSession type is part of Foundation, as are many core building blocks that you need for making a real application.)
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- st3fan 2y ago
  You are wrong about "some parts" - you can browse github.com/swiftlang to find out. About control - serious question: how is this different from for example Rust, Go, Zig or Python? For each of those you can submit a change proposal through an official process and you can submit code changes through a pull request. But also for each of those there is a non-zero chance that a smaller group of people who do governance of the project, the core team or leads or module owners, will either tell you that your proposal or code change is not appropriate or compatible with the project's goals or they will help you to merge it. That is exactly the same for Swift. Why is Apple suddenly a dictator while every other project also has an agenda and strict rules that are being enforced? Is the expectation to just be able to do whatever you want in a project like Swift?
  - iamkonstantin 2y ago
    > how is this different from for example Rust, Go, Zig or Python I believe op means Swift is different because Apple is the gatekeeper at the top of the Swift project https://www.swift.org/community/#project-lead https://www.swift.org/community/#project-lead By contrast, other open languages usually have elected leadership and aren’t directly subject to a specific corporation.
    - qaq 2y ago
      Go is pretty much controlled by Google I don't follow it closely but there was a ton of drama around AWS influence on Rust through hiring key Rust devs. Zig has BDFL Python had BDFL
  - troupo 2y ago
    > About control - serious question: how is this different from for example Rust, Go, Zig or Python? You can ask Chris Lattner about how many many changes were forced through the language before they were ready, or even properly designed, because Apple needed them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovYbgbrQ-v8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovYbgbrQ-v8
  - isodev 2y ago
    You’re only focusing on access to source code, the comment is about leadership and decision making. Remember the OmniSharp story around VSCode from just two years ago? It’s a very high profile example of what can (and eventually will) happen with corporate-controlled projects. Swift can’t evolve or even exist without Apple and so unless you’re Apple, then Swift is too great of a risk.
    - chefandy 2y ago
      > Swift can’t evolve or even exist without Apple and so unless you’re Apple, then Swift is too great of a risk. I'm not sure what you're saying here. It's Apache licensed so you can just fork it. It's got pretty active development and a whole lot of software developers that use it-- if Apple decides to somehow lock down the repo and stop accepting PRs, what's stopping a group of developers from just making their own branch? It's got non-Apple cross-platform GUI frameworks, good support in editors... Sure it's 100% not as good off of Apple systems but I'm not sure what they'd be expected to do MORE than open it up with an Apache license? And OmniSharp works just fine in VSCode from what I see. What am I missing?
- carlosjobim 2y ago
  Can't you fork it then? Isn't that what open source is about?

isodev 2y ago

Is it really being released? Although some parts of the language and build chains are technically open source (as in, you can see the code), the project is still completely controlled by Apple at the top.

cvwright 2y ago
They have also been working on a completely open source version of the Foundation library for use on Linux and other platforms. (IIRC the URLSession type is part of Foundation, as are many core building blocks that you need for making a real application.)
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
st3fan 2y ago
You are wrong about "some parts" - you can browse github.com/swiftlang to find out. About control - serious question: how is this different from for example Rust, Go, Zig or Python? For each of those you can submit a change proposal through an official process and you can submit code changes through a pull request. But also for each of those there is a non-zero chance that a smaller group of people who do governance of the project, the core team or leads or module owners, will either tell you that your proposal or code change is not appropriate or compatible with the project's goals or they will help you to merge it. That is exactly the same for Swift. Why is Apple suddenly a dictator while every other project also has an agenda and strict rules that are being enforced? Is the expectation to just be able to do whatever you want in a project like Swift?
- iamkonstantin 2y ago
  > how is this different from for example Rust, Go, Zig or Python I believe op means Swift is different because Apple is the gatekeeper at the top of the Swift project https://www.swift.org/community/#project-lead https://www.swift.org/community/#project-lead By contrast, other open languages usually have elected leadership and aren’t directly subject to a specific corporation.
  - qaq 2y ago
    Go is pretty much controlled by Google I don't follow it closely but there was a ton of drama around AWS influence on Rust through hiring key Rust devs. Zig has BDFL Python had BDFL
- troupo 2y ago
  > About control - serious question: how is this different from for example Rust, Go, Zig or Python? You can ask Chris Lattner about how many many changes were forced through the language before they were ready, or even properly designed, because Apple needed them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovYbgbrQ-v8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovYbgbrQ-v8
- isodev 2y ago
  You’re only focusing on access to source code, the comment is about leadership and decision making. Remember the OmniSharp story around VSCode from just two years ago? It’s a very high profile example of what can (and eventually will) happen with corporate-controlled projects. Swift can’t evolve or even exist without Apple and so unless you’re Apple, then Swift is too great of a risk.
  - chefandy 2y ago
    > Swift can’t evolve or even exist without Apple and so unless you’re Apple, then Swift is too great of a risk. I'm not sure what you're saying here. It's Apache licensed so you can just fork it. It's got pretty active development and a whole lot of software developers that use it-- if Apple decides to somehow lock down the repo and stop accepting PRs, what's stopping a group of developers from just making their own branch? It's got non-Apple cross-platform GUI frameworks, good support in editors... Sure it's 100% not as good off of Apple systems but I'm not sure what they'd be expected to do MORE than open it up with an Apache license? And OmniSharp works just fine in VSCode from what I see. What am I missing?
carlosjobim 2y ago
Can't you fork it then? Isn't that what open source is about?