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> They won't cut traffic for the same reason they are understaffed: money. Raise pay until you have enough staff. It's really not that simple. It's a 3-year t

> They won't cut traffic for the same reason they are understaffed: money. Raise pay until you have enough staff. It's really not that simple. It's a 3-year training process. There's really nothing that's going to get you adequately staffed in the short term. Sure, that could solve the problem medium term.

mbreese 2y ago
I think you’ve found the root issue. There is no short term fix. And our current governmental setup isn’t capable of handling medium to long term problems. It has been this way for quite a while, so this issue isn’t new. Long-term political will isn’t there, so if the problem can’t be fixed quickly, it’s as if there is no possible solution.
- icegreentea2 2y ago
  This may be true, but it's not properly reflective of this particular situation. While it's true that it takes 2-3 years to fully certify, the initial academy (a few months long) still has limited spots. ATC staffing problems did not just appear this week. The FAA is limited by Congress in how to deploy its budget towards recruitment. Congress passed a bill earlier in 2024 authorizing the FAA to hire at the maximum capacity possible (https://www.govexec.com/workforce/2024/05/faa-will-soon-be-able-hire-thousands-new-staff-reauthorization-bill-heads-bidens-desk/396599/ https://www.govexec.com/workforce/2024/05/faa-will-soon-be-a...). Action is possible. We've known since the initial post-COVID travel bump that the FAA was short on controllers - these could have been addressed potentially as early as late 2022. Infact a 2-3 year timeframe is absolutely short enough to count as "short term". Thats within an election cycle.
tczMUFlmoNk 2y ago
The set of active controllers isn't static: people come and people go. If you raise pay right now, current, skilled controllers will be more inclined to stay, while new controllers who've been training for the last 2.9 years join. Raising pay helps combat attrition, which increases the population.
Ekaros 2y ago
If it is 3-year training process is it not the previous administration that is to blame? Surely they would have trained enough people. And it is not like huge amount of controllers were fired just now?
- Loudergood 2y ago
  It's the last 3 or 4 administrations to blame at this point, and they were just offered early retirement deals.
  - Levitz 2y ago
    This is the funniest thing of all: it's just a shitfest all around. Here's an article about the air-controller shortage, from 2014: https://www.cnbc.com/2014/12/15/blame-the-faa-for-air-traffic-controller-shortage-retirement-commnentary.html https://www.cnbc.com/2014/12/15/blame-the-faa-for-air-traffi... Here's more! from 2008: https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna22917202 https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna22917202 Here's a substack post from last year, talking about a legal case spanning back a decade and how, what do you know, DEI is actually involved in this whole fiasco to a tiny degree: https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/the-faas-hiring-scandal-a-quick-overview https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/the-faas-hiring-scandal-... It's impossible, completely impossible to in good faith blame any one actor on this issue, this goes way too far back.
- brookst 2y ago
  Blame is rarely as simple as “either A or B”. And while controllers were not fired (we think), apparently most/all of them got an email saying they may be laid off at any time without notice, so they should accept buyouts and quit[1], which might impact absenteeism and commitment. 1. https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-admin-emails-air-traffic-193838183.html https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-admin-emails-air-traffic-19...
RandomBacon 2y ago
ATC here (opinions are my own, not of the FAA, etc) Pay is a huge part of it, so it really is that simple. Qualified people are choosing not to even apply anymore because the pay is no longer competitive with other high-paying jobs that don't destroy you mentally and physically, or have a complicated hiring process like ATC does.
- bryant 2y ago
  Frankly the pay should be comparable to commercial pilots in the current market. Or more. Funding sadly is probably better handled as a tax on the people rather than the industry simply because ATCs protect more than just commercial crew and passengers, and more than just their home country.
  - nradov 2y ago
    Which pilots? Rookie controllers already get paid more per hour than most general aviation flight instructors, or first officers in regional airlines. Pay for captains at major airlines is quite good, but few pilots ever reach that level.
    - RandomBacon 2y ago
      United Airlines alone has around 15,000 pilots, about the same number of FAA ATC. So those pilots. Even their new pilots (First Officers) make more per hour than ATC. (ATC here, opinions are my own and not that of the FAA.)
- giantg2 2y ago
  Median pay is higher than my pay, and it looks like equal to median dev pay. But why would I want the stress and lower flexibility? I hate my current job and still wouldn't be interested in ATC for the higher pay.
  - SoftTalker 2y ago
    The sense of doing something useful? Maybe it gets lost, but I think that going home knowing that you were part of safely getting people and aircraft where then need to go would be fulfilling. Also very stressful though, knowing what the consequences of a mistake can be. Developers can always fix their mistakes. Very, very few would even even possibly result in the loss of life. I'd think pay for controllers should be much higher, but like anything it is subject to economics. If people are willing to do it for $X, then that is what it will pay.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
pessimizer 2y ago
You can't neglect something, then turn down fixes because they won't happen fast enough. Fast enough wasn't a concern during the period of neglect, so a sense of urgency is playacting. The optimal solution is to pay properly, and if temporary things have to be done (rewarding people for not retiring, paying a premium to develop/import some controllers quickly) then so be it. What a "3-year training process" and the fact that accidents come at random does is create a grace period for profiteering. They would neither get a fast enough return on investments in staff, nor see fast enough losses from disasters resulting from staffing neglect, to see any problem with both not investing in staff and with finding savings in neglect. Problems during the transition period between starting to do the right thing and when you will see the effects of that thing are good problems to have. They go away by themselves.
- brookst 2y ago
  > Fast enough wasn't a concern during the period of neglect, so a sense of urgency is playacting. I can’t agree with that at all. I would never treat a crisis as less urgent because other people in the past did not treat the contributory factors urgently enough. Lack of urgency in the past is a sunk cost. It’s silly to evaluate urgency today on that basis.
gavinhoward 2y ago
ATC-wannabe here. I can't be ATC anymore because I'm too old. I can't even start. That age limit needs to change. And yes, more pay.
- RandomBacon 2y ago
  The hiring age limit is due to the mandatory retirement age (56).
  - gavinhoward 2y ago
    I know. Still dumb.
  - rsanek 2y ago
    we could use this kind of limit for the president too
tanewishly 2y ago
So I think if the US gave out good secondary benefits, a green card and good pay for experienced candidates, the lead time would be far shorter. Sure, you'd need to train such foreign candidates in US regulations, but that ought to be a far shorter route. And I'm sure the US could afford to get half of the ATCs from $FOREIGN_COUNTRY with such a proposition. (For countries where a desire to live in the US is common, that is). While that is totally not done wrt that foreign country: 1. Money+employment conditions could alleviate the problem significantly; 2. something flamebaity.

mbreese 2y ago

I think you’ve found the root issue. There is no short term fix. And our current governmental setup isn’t capable of handling medium to long term problems. It has been this way for quite a while, so this issue isn’t new. Long-term political will isn’t there, so if the problem can’t be fixed quickly, it’s as if there is no possible solution.

icegreentea2 2y ago
This may be true, but it's not properly reflective of this particular situation. While it's true that it takes 2-3 years to fully certify, the initial academy (a few months long) still has limited spots. ATC staffing problems did not just appear this week. The FAA is limited by Congress in how to deploy its budget towards recruitment. Congress passed a bill earlier in 2024 authorizing the FAA to hire at the maximum capacity possible (https://www.govexec.com/workforce/2024/05/faa-will-soon-be-able-hire-thousands-new-staff-reauthorization-bill-heads-bidens-desk/396599/ https://www.govexec.com/workforce/2024/05/faa-will-soon-be-a...). Action is possible. We've known since the initial post-COVID travel bump that the FAA was short on controllers - these could have been addressed potentially as early as late 2022. Infact a 2-3 year timeframe is absolutely short enough to count as "short term". Thats within an election cycle.

tczMUFlmoNk 2y ago

The set of active controllers isn't static: people come and people go. If you raise pay right now, current, skilled controllers will be more inclined to stay, while new controllers who've been training for the last 2.9 years join. Raising pay helps combat attrition, which increases the population.

Ekaros 2y ago

If it is 3-year training process is it not the previous administration that is to blame? Surely they would have trained enough people. And it is not like huge amount of controllers were fired just now?

Loudergood 2y ago
It's the last 3 or 4 administrations to blame at this point, and they were just offered early retirement deals.
- Levitz 2y ago
  This is the funniest thing of all: it's just a shitfest all around. Here's an article about the air-controller shortage, from 2014: https://www.cnbc.com/2014/12/15/blame-the-faa-for-air-traffic-controller-shortage-retirement-commnentary.html https://www.cnbc.com/2014/12/15/blame-the-faa-for-air-traffi... Here's more! from 2008: https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna22917202 https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna22917202 Here's a substack post from last year, talking about a legal case spanning back a decade and how, what do you know, DEI is actually involved in this whole fiasco to a tiny degree: https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/the-faas-hiring-scandal-a-quick-overview https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/the-faas-hiring-scandal-... It's impossible, completely impossible to in good faith blame any one actor on this issue, this goes way too far back.
brookst 2y ago
Blame is rarely as simple as “either A or B”. And while controllers were not fired (we think), apparently most/all of them got an email saying they may be laid off at any time without notice, so they should accept buyouts and quit[1], which might impact absenteeism and commitment. 1. https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-admin-emails-air-traffic-193838183.html https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-admin-emails-air-traffic-19...

RandomBacon 2y ago

ATC here (opinions are my own, not of the FAA, etc) Pay is a huge part of it, so it really is that simple. Qualified people are choosing not to even apply anymore because the pay is no longer competitive with other high-paying jobs that don't destroy you mentally and physically, or have a complicated hiring process like ATC does.

bryant 2y ago
Frankly the pay should be comparable to commercial pilots in the current market. Or more. Funding sadly is probably better handled as a tax on the people rather than the industry simply because ATCs protect more than just commercial crew and passengers, and more than just their home country.
- nradov 2y ago
  Which pilots? Rookie controllers already get paid more per hour than most general aviation flight instructors, or first officers in regional airlines. Pay for captains at major airlines is quite good, but few pilots ever reach that level.
  - RandomBacon 2y ago
    United Airlines alone has around 15,000 pilots, about the same number of FAA ATC. So those pilots. Even their new pilots (First Officers) make more per hour than ATC. (ATC here, opinions are my own and not that of the FAA.)
giantg2 2y ago
Median pay is higher than my pay, and it looks like equal to median dev pay. But why would I want the stress and lower flexibility? I hate my current job and still wouldn't be interested in ATC for the higher pay.
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  The sense of doing something useful? Maybe it gets lost, but I think that going home knowing that you were part of safely getting people and aircraft where then need to go would be fulfilling. Also very stressful though, knowing what the consequences of a mistake can be. Developers can always fix their mistakes. Very, very few would even even possibly result in the loss of life. I'd think pay for controllers should be much higher, but like anything it is subject to economics. If people are willing to do it for $X, then that is what it will pay.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

pessimizer 2y ago

You can't neglect something, then turn down fixes because they won't happen fast enough. Fast enough wasn't a concern during the period of neglect, so a sense of urgency is playacting. The optimal solution is to pay properly, and if temporary things have to be done (rewarding people for not retiring, paying a premium to develop/import some controllers quickly) then so be it. What a "3-year training process" and the fact that accidents come at random does is create a grace period for profiteering. They would neither get a fast enough return on investments in staff, nor see fast enough losses from disasters resulting from staffing neglect, to see any problem with both not investing in staff and with finding savings in neglect. Problems during the transition period between starting to do the right thing and when you will see the effects of that thing are good problems to have. They go away by themselves.

brookst 2y ago
> Fast enough wasn't a concern during the period of neglect, so a sense of urgency is playacting. I can’t agree with that at all. I would never treat a crisis as less urgent because other people in the past did not treat the contributory factors urgently enough. Lack of urgency in the past is a sunk cost. It’s silly to evaluate urgency today on that basis.

gavinhoward 2y ago

ATC-wannabe here. I can't be ATC anymore because I'm too old. I can't even start. That age limit needs to change. And yes, more pay.

RandomBacon 2y ago
The hiring age limit is due to the mandatory retirement age (56).
- gavinhoward 2y ago
  I know. Still dumb.
- rsanek 2y ago
  we could use this kind of limit for the president too

tanewishly 2y ago

So I think if the US gave out good secondary benefits, a green card and good pay for experienced candidates, the lead time would be far shorter. Sure, you'd need to train such foreign candidates in US regulations, but that ought to be a far shorter route. And I'm sure the US could afford to get half of the ATCs from $FOREIGN_COUNTRY with such a proposition. (For countries where a desire to live in the US is common, that is). While that is totally not done wrt that foreign country: 1. Money+employment conditions could alleviate the problem significantly; 2. something flamebaity.