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> Protest doesn't do anything. Most rights that workers have today have been earned through protesting (and sometimes the bloody consequence of protesting whil

by diggan 2y ago

> Protest doesn't do anything. Most rights that workers have today have been earned through protesting (and sometimes the bloody consequence of protesting while the state is resisting wanted changes). Protests only "doesn't do anything" when you don't do it enough or give up. Maybe I'm too European to understand, but the "pacifist" approach of the US working class seems to not be working out great.

CalRobert 2y ago
Protest works when it’s backed by a threat. “Do what we want or we will remove you from power”. What we have now is “do what we want or we’ll be sad”. The pitchforks aren’t just for show!! And I’ve lived in Europe for over a decade now and frankly much of Europe is painfully naive about how much people in power care about protestors waving clever signs.
- diggan 2y ago
  > And I’ve lived in Europe for over a decade now and frankly much of Europe is painfully naive about how much people in power care about protestors waving clever signs. I guess the same goes the other way, Americans seems painfully unaware how effective the public's will can be, when you act together. But I think that's to be expected, the US is still relatively new and young, compared to other countries, so lessons others have learned still need to be learned by the Americans themselves. I guess this is what we're witnessing right now. I'd urge you to look up changes brought by protesting and riots, but I think we both know you're not interested in learning, since you already stated twice you think it's pointless.
  - CalRobert 2y ago
    Your condescending and dismissive tone notwithstanding, I am curious to hear more about peaceful protests working when they weren't backed with an implicit threat of removing politicians from power. Ideally, of course, you have a functioning democracy, but I don't really think that describes much of the US at this point (the people who'd protest are mostly in blue states anyway where their votes, even if correctly tabulated, count less). Other examples might be Ghandi, who promoted nonviolence but really only got India's freedom when the British empire was in terminal decline, or the civil rights movement, which happened when the US was a much healthier democracy and swaying public opinion was enough to remove people through elections. You might cite the velvet revolution too, but that also was targeting an empire in decline. I argue that elections in the US _will not matter_ (Trump's cryptic comments about how Elon knows all about these voting machines and they won Pennsylvania thanks to him are telling....) and in that context protest doesn't do anything because the people in power have nothing to fear if they ignore the protestors.
    - marcosdumay 2y ago
      > when they weren't backed with an implicit threat of removing politicians from power Normally, in a democracy, when you get a lot of people together complaining about something, it is already an implicit threat of removing politicians from power. But if you manipulate the electoral system enough, it stops being. The fact that this mostly doesn't work nowadays is loudly telling people all they need to know.
    - diggan 2y ago
      > Your condescending and dismissive tone notwithstanding I was trying to adopt to your own tone, not sure why you'd feel that it is condescending or dismissive. > I am curious to hear more about peaceful protests working Some starting points: 2024 protests in Serbia leading to the resignation of the Prime Minister. 15-M protests in Spain leading to the formation of new political parties and reforms. Velvet Revolution (I know you already mentioned this) leading to the overthrowing of the communist government. The Singing Revolution leading to the independence of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. Euromaidan/Revolution of Dignity leading to the ousting of Viktor Yanukovych in Ukraine. These are just recent examples, I could go on... Honest question: Have you attempted to lookup examples yourself, and you didn't find a single example?
- marcosdumay 2y ago
  Just remember, the most successful protest in recent Europe history has been when about 10% of the Iceland population showed up in front of the administration building with literal pitchforks and torches on their hands. They immediately got what they wanted.
  - CalRobert 2y ago
    Even the NRA supports gun control when it's the black panthers exercising their rights. https://www.history.com/news/black-panthers-gun-control-nra-support-mulford-act https://www.history.com/news/black-panthers-gun-control-nra-...
    - mindslight 2y ago
      More recently, don't forget them being completely silent when Breonna Taylor was summarily executed for Kenneth Walker daring to exercise his second amendment right of home defense in the middle of the night. When this movement says "freedom", they mean merely for themselves to do whatever they please - not as a universal societal principle.
Dalewyn 2y ago
It seems like you're missing something pretty basic here, so here it goes: Government workers going on strike means they're doing what we want them to do, which is nothing. As a Trump voter, I want these federal government workers to stop working so the astronomical waste of our time/money and disturbing of peace stops. The best work the US government does is when it's doing nothing, because it's hardly working properly unless it's forced to (ICE is an example of government actually working again). Whether the workers resign, strike/protest, or get back to work implementing MAGA policies in the office, we win.
- Spooky23 2y ago
  The good news is that as a Trump voter who is a MAGA believer, you’ve established that you’re ignorant and open to emotional manipulation. You’re the political equivalent of the old lady who talks to the scammers. So when your glorious day comes, and your State asserts their rights and levies your bank account to pay for your parents medical bills as your filial responsibility, (or whatever your personal tragedy ends up being) you’ll have the feels, and will flip to the next cult of personality.
  - Dalewyn 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - antman 2y ago
      So you have no reality filter to alert you on the condoms claim?
      - Dalewyn 2y ago
        [flagged]
        galangalalgol 2y ago
        I like minimal government too. It has a few necessary roles, and foreign aid isn't one. Why are we recognizing that with Ukraine, and Mozambique but not Israel? Keeping the free market working by trust-bustingbis one too. I welcome a true house cleaning, but we are just trading regulatory capture for unregulated corruption. You wanted the land of do as you please, but got the land of do as they please. This is just an authoritarian power grab under the guise of renewal. I could be wrong, but as others have said, the proof will be in how the response to legal challenges to the house cleaning go. If they are ignored or rubber stamped by the scotus no matter how obviously they violate the law, then we know I am right. If some of the move fast and break things gets stopped by the scotus, or the admin backs down when things get challenged as illegal, then maybe this is exactly what we needed. I am not hopeful. Edit: I think I was being disingenuous about foreign aid, sometimes foreign aid can be necessary to protect the well-being of US citizens. Stopping pandemics early or preventing them. Standing by a treaty so people know our word is good. Maintaining access to a resource our economy depends on etc. I just find it telling that the only foreign aid that was exempted was to Israel.

by diggan 2y ago

CalRobert 2y ago

Protest works when it’s backed by a threat. “Do what we want or we will remove you from power”. What we have now is “do what we want or we’ll be sad”. The pitchforks aren’t just for show!! And I’ve lived in Europe for over a decade now and frankly much of Europe is painfully naive about how much people in power care about protestors waving clever signs.

diggan 2y ago
> And I’ve lived in Europe for over a decade now and frankly much of Europe is painfully naive about how much people in power care about protestors waving clever signs. I guess the same goes the other way, Americans seems painfully unaware how effective the public's will can be, when you act together. But I think that's to be expected, the US is still relatively new and young, compared to other countries, so lessons others have learned still need to be learned by the Americans themselves. I guess this is what we're witnessing right now. I'd urge you to look up changes brought by protesting and riots, but I think we both know you're not interested in learning, since you already stated twice you think it's pointless.
- CalRobert 2y ago
  Your condescending and dismissive tone notwithstanding, I am curious to hear more about peaceful protests working when they weren't backed with an implicit threat of removing politicians from power. Ideally, of course, you have a functioning democracy, but I don't really think that describes much of the US at this point (the people who'd protest are mostly in blue states anyway where their votes, even if correctly tabulated, count less). Other examples might be Ghandi, who promoted nonviolence but really only got India's freedom when the British empire was in terminal decline, or the civil rights movement, which happened when the US was a much healthier democracy and swaying public opinion was enough to remove people through elections. You might cite the velvet revolution too, but that also was targeting an empire in decline. I argue that elections in the US _will not matter_ (Trump's cryptic comments about how Elon knows all about these voting machines and they won Pennsylvania thanks to him are telling....) and in that context protest doesn't do anything because the people in power have nothing to fear if they ignore the protestors.
  - marcosdumay 2y ago
    > when they weren't backed with an implicit threat of removing politicians from power Normally, in a democracy, when you get a lot of people together complaining about something, it is already an implicit threat of removing politicians from power. But if you manipulate the electoral system enough, it stops being. The fact that this mostly doesn't work nowadays is loudly telling people all they need to know.
  - diggan 2y ago
    > Your condescending and dismissive tone notwithstanding I was trying to adopt to your own tone, not sure why you'd feel that it is condescending or dismissive. > I am curious to hear more about peaceful protests working Some starting points: 2024 protests in Serbia leading to the resignation of the Prime Minister. 15-M protests in Spain leading to the formation of new political parties and reforms. Velvet Revolution (I know you already mentioned this) leading to the overthrowing of the communist government. The Singing Revolution leading to the independence of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. Euromaidan/Revolution of Dignity leading to the ousting of Viktor Yanukovych in Ukraine. These are just recent examples, I could go on... Honest question: Have you attempted to lookup examples yourself, and you didn't find a single example?
marcosdumay 2y ago
Just remember, the most successful protest in recent Europe history has been when about 10% of the Iceland population showed up in front of the administration building with literal pitchforks and torches on their hands. They immediately got what they wanted.
- CalRobert 2y ago
  Even the NRA supports gun control when it's the black panthers exercising their rights. https://www.history.com/news/black-panthers-gun-control-nra-support-mulford-act https://www.history.com/news/black-panthers-gun-control-nra-...
  - mindslight 2y ago
    More recently, don't forget them being completely silent when Breonna Taylor was summarily executed for Kenneth Walker daring to exercise his second amendment right of home defense in the middle of the night. When this movement says "freedom", they mean merely for themselves to do whatever they please - not as a universal societal principle.

Dalewyn 2y ago

It seems like you're missing something pretty basic here, so here it goes: Government workers going on strike means they're doing what we want them to do, which is nothing. As a Trump voter, I want these federal government workers to stop working so the astronomical waste of our time/money and disturbing of peace stops. The best work the US government does is when it's doing nothing, because it's hardly working properly unless it's forced to (ICE is an example of government actually working again). Whether the workers resign, strike/protest, or get back to work implementing MAGA policies in the office, we win.

Spooky23 2y ago
The good news is that as a Trump voter who is a MAGA believer, you’ve established that you’re ignorant and open to emotional manipulation. You’re the political equivalent of the old lady who talks to the scammers. So when your glorious day comes, and your State asserts their rights and levies your bank account to pay for your parents medical bills as your filial responsibility, (or whatever your personal tragedy ends up being) you’ll have the feels, and will flip to the next cult of personality.
- Dalewyn 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - antman 2y ago
    So you have no reality filter to alert you on the condoms claim?
    - Dalewyn 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - galangalalgol 2y ago
        I like minimal government too. It has a few necessary roles, and foreign aid isn't one. Why are we recognizing that with Ukraine, and Mozambique but not Israel? Keeping the free market working by trust-bustingbis one too. I welcome a true house cleaning, but we are just trading regulatory capture for unregulated corruption. You wanted the land of do as you please, but got the land of do as they please. This is just an authoritarian power grab under the guise of renewal. I could be wrong, but as others have said, the proof will be in how the response to legal challenges to the house cleaning go. If they are ignored or rubber stamped by the scotus no matter how obviously they violate the law, then we know I am right. If some of the move fast and break things gets stopped by the scotus, or the admin backs down when things get challenged as illegal, then maybe this is exactly what we needed. I am not hopeful. Edit: I think I was being disingenuous about foreign aid, sometimes foreign aid can be necessary to protect the well-being of US citizens. Stopping pandemics early or preventing them. Standing by a treaty so people know our word is good. Maintaining access to a resource our economy depends on etc. I just find it telling that the only foreign aid that was exempted was to Israel.