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It's a tool, and just like other tools, it multiplies human labor and intellect. I don't need to spend a decade becoming proficient with a pocket knife, and th

It's a tool, and just like other tools, it multiplies human labor and intellect. I don't need to spend a decade becoming proficient with a pocket knife, and then another decade becoming an expert with an ax. Instead, an experienced person can show me how to be safe with a chainsaw in an afternoon. I won't be an expert with the chainsaw, that still takes many hours of experience, but I don't need the knife and ax prerequisites.

add-sub-mul-div 2y ago
The calculator has allowed anyone to do complex arithmetic while they're holding a calculator, required by a job or some other formal or necessary context. At the expense of retarding most people's ability to do everyday math at places like the grocery store, a context in which they won't have the wherewithal to pull out the tool. It has not increased intellect regarding anything but rote keypressed calculation.
- idiotsecant 2y ago
  On the other hand, looking up trigonometric functions in a table to find precise answers is not a valuable human activity. Calculators keep you from having to do that.
  - blackbear_ 2y ago
    That's right! And what human activity do these AI tools replace? A calculator is only useful if you are able to put in the right formula, which means you still need to understand the problem and its solution. On the other hand, you lose the ability to verify that the solution is actually correct, beyond double checking that all your inputs are okay. And if your solution cannot be found through the operations supported by the calculator then you're just stuck and need to think of another way. Modern AI is much more advanced because users only need to ask questions. But that means people who rely too much on it will lose the ability to understand the solution. Or, even worse, they will never acquire that ability in the first place if they offload all intellectual tasks from primary school onwards to an AI. If people leave the thinking to an AI, they will lose the ability to think on their own. Of course responsible users can and will use AI to significantly boost their learning and capabilities, but the question is what will happen to society at large over long periods of time. If the dominant attitude is that only results and outcomes matter, then I think that we are heading towards an intellectual wasteland. And that is kind of the point. Tools both augment and limit human capabilities, so that we gradually forget what was before the tool existed. But a tool like AI could limit people's ability so much that we become collectively blind to its limitations. And that is exactly the local maximum of cultural development that started this thread of discussion.
  - abenga 2y ago
    Is using AI the equivalent of using a calculator to look up trigonometric function values, or outsourcing understanding what the functions are?
    - ben_w 2y ago
      Right now, more the former, but it depends. I'm an iOS dev. The better models exceed what I can learn about the operating system I develop for, in the same way that a trig function on a calculator exceeds the precision a human can memorise. (So do search engines, but they can't respond to natural language queries combined several topics at once). Because LLMs perform like juniors (sychophantic juniors with Alzheimer's), if you use them blindly without knowing the domain, that's still occasionally like picking random trig buttons because you don't know which of [sin, cos, tan] you wanted.
Arainach 2y ago
You can show someone how to safely use a chainsaw, but the people who build replacements for or better chainsaws often have worked building, repairing, and using those tools day in and day out. Education involves repeating things others have done, doing them wrong, and learning from that. When you give someone a tool which just gets the answer without having to understand why, you never have to build the mental model that lets you understand how things can be better. You see this in software: tools can let you build an app in a day, but if you just use those tools you will have no idea why your app is slower than it has to be or what other things are possible. When tools let everyone outsource their writing and even their thinking to machines, many of them are not "working faster" - they are skipping crucial steps and acting without understanding. Tools can allow many people to become moderately proficient rapidly, but when they are introduced immediately they can hinder the development of becoming incredibly proficient.
whattheheckheck 2y ago
But are we identifying what the new katas are with the new tools?

add-sub-mul-div 2y ago

The calculator has allowed anyone to do complex arithmetic while they're holding a calculator, required by a job or some other formal or necessary context. At the expense of retarding most people's ability to do everyday math at places like the grocery store, a context in which they won't have the wherewithal to pull out the tool. It has not increased intellect regarding anything but rote keypressed calculation.

idiotsecant 2y ago
On the other hand, looking up trigonometric functions in a table to find precise answers is not a valuable human activity. Calculators keep you from having to do that.
- blackbear_ 2y ago
  That's right! And what human activity do these AI tools replace? A calculator is only useful if you are able to put in the right formula, which means you still need to understand the problem and its solution. On the other hand, you lose the ability to verify that the solution is actually correct, beyond double checking that all your inputs are okay. And if your solution cannot be found through the operations supported by the calculator then you're just stuck and need to think of another way. Modern AI is much more advanced because users only need to ask questions. But that means people who rely too much on it will lose the ability to understand the solution. Or, even worse, they will never acquire that ability in the first place if they offload all intellectual tasks from primary school onwards to an AI. If people leave the thinking to an AI, they will lose the ability to think on their own. Of course responsible users can and will use AI to significantly boost their learning and capabilities, but the question is what will happen to society at large over long periods of time. If the dominant attitude is that only results and outcomes matter, then I think that we are heading towards an intellectual wasteland. And that is kind of the point. Tools both augment and limit human capabilities, so that we gradually forget what was before the tool existed. But a tool like AI could limit people's ability so much that we become collectively blind to its limitations. And that is exactly the local maximum of cultural development that started this thread of discussion.
- abenga 2y ago
  Is using AI the equivalent of using a calculator to look up trigonometric function values, or outsourcing understanding what the functions are?
  - ben_w 2y ago
    Right now, more the former, but it depends. I'm an iOS dev. The better models exceed what I can learn about the operating system I develop for, in the same way that a trig function on a calculator exceeds the precision a human can memorise. (So do search engines, but they can't respond to natural language queries combined several topics at once). Because LLMs perform like juniors (sychophantic juniors with Alzheimer's), if you use them blindly without knowing the domain, that's still occasionally like picking random trig buttons because you don't know which of [sin, cos, tan] you wanted.

Arainach 2y ago

You can show someone how to safely use a chainsaw, but the people who build replacements for or better chainsaws often have worked building, repairing, and using those tools day in and day out. Education involves repeating things others have done, doing them wrong, and learning from that. When you give someone a tool which just gets the answer without having to understand why, you never have to build the mental model that lets you understand how things can be better. You see this in software: tools can let you build an app in a day, but if you just use those tools you will have no idea why your app is slower than it has to be or what other things are possible. When tools let everyone outsource their writing and even their thinking to machines, many of them are not "working faster" - they are skipping crucial steps and acting without understanding. Tools can allow many people to become moderately proficient rapidly, but when they are introduced immediately they can hinder the development of becoming incredibly proficient.

whattheheckheck 2y ago

But are we identifying what the new katas are with the new tools?