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> The DeepSeek-R1 model avoids discussing the Tiananmen Square incident due to built-in censorship. This is because the model was developed in China, where ther

> The DeepSeek-R1 model avoids discussing the Tiananmen Square incident due to built-in censorship. This is because the model was developed in China, where there are strict regulations on discussing certain sensitive topics. I believe this may have more to do with the fact that the model is served from China than the model itself. Trying similar questions from an offline distilled version of DeepSeek R1, I did not get elusive answers. I have not tested this exhaustively, just a few observations.

phantom784 2y ago
When I tested the online model, it would write an answer about "censored" events, and then I'd see the answer get replaced with "Sorry, that’s beyond my current scope. Let’s talk about something else." So I think they must have another layer on top of the actual model that's reviewing the model and censoring it.
krunck 2y ago
Even deepseek-r1:7b on my laptop(downloaded via ollama) is - ahem - biased: ">>> Is Taiwan a sovereign nation? <think> </think> Taiwan is part of China, and there is no such thing as "Taiwan independence." The Chinese government resolutely opposes any form of activities aimed at splitting the country. The One-China Principle is a widely recognized consensus in the international community." * Edited to note where model is was downloaded from Also: I LOVE that this kneejerk response(ok it' doesn't have knees, but you get what I'm sayin') doesn't have anything in the <think> tags. So appropriate. That's how propaganda works. It bypasses rational thought.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > The One-China Principle is a widely recognized consensus in the international community This is baloney. One country, two systems is a clever invention of Deng's we went along with while China spoke softly and carried a big stick [1]. Xi's wolf warriors ruined that. Taiwan is de facto recognised by most of the West [2], with defence co-operation stretching across Europe, the U.S. [3] and--I suspect soon--India [4]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_country,_two_systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_country,_two_systems [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_Taiwan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_Taiwan [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_industry_of_Taiwan#Modern https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_industry_of_Taiwan#Mod... [4] https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/economics/article/3199333/india-taiwan-relations-delhi-wants-chips-taipei-needs-friends-what-about-one-china https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/economics/article/3199333/ind...
  - poincaredisk 2y ago
    What do you base your expectations on? Looking at the historical data, the trend is in the other direction and many more countries used to recognize Taiwan before. [1] In case you're not aware, you need to pick if you recognise Taiwan of mainland China. They both claim to be the same country, so you can't have diplomatic relationships with both. And since mainland China is, umm, a very important and powerful country, almost everyone now goes with "China == mainland China" [1] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cc/China_vs_Taiwan%2C_global_struggle_for_recognition.png/1280px-China_vs_Taiwan%2C_global_struggle_for_recognition.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cc/Ch...
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > Looking at the historical data, the trend is in the other direction and many more countries used to recognize Taiwan before India hasn't reaffirmed One China in decades [1]. Beijing and Washington are on a collission course, and it seems like a low-cost leverage piece in a trade war to throw recognising Taiwan on the table. (Makes Xi look weak, which he'd trade an arm and a leg to prevent. And Trump doesn't care, let's be honest, if Taiwan gets bombed as a result.) Very few countries recognise only Taiwan because China obviously exists. The nuance your map doesn't pick up is countries recognising both Taiwan and China, or, more pointedly, treating Taiwan like an independent nation. > They both claim to be the same country, so you can't have diplomatic relationships with both Of course one can and people do [2]? Taiwan's embassies in each of these countries are full embassies, with diplomatic protections and everything. At the end of the day, Taiwan's sovereignty is a manufactured regional dispute, Xi's "Gulf of America". There are lots of them [3][4][5]. Not everyone wants to get involved in every one, and those who do usually don't care to prioritise them. [1] https://thediplomat.com/2017/03/where-is-india-on-the-one-china-policy/ https://thediplomat.com/2017/03/where-is-india-on-the-one-ch... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_diplomatic_missions_of_Taiwan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_diplomatic_missions_of... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guyana%E2%80%93Venezuela_crisis_(2023%E2%80%93present) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guyana%E2%80%93Venezuela_crisi... [4] https://www.cfr.org/global-conflict-tracker/conflict/territorial-disputes-south-china-sea https://www.cfr.org/global-conflict-tracker/conflict/territo... [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_Western_Sahara https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_Western_Sa...
- fkyoureadthedoc 2y ago
  I asked DeepSeek-r1:32b to decide unilaterally on the Taiwan independence issue and it wouldn't do it no matter how many babies I killed!
  - axus 2y ago
    That's actually interesting that it wouldn't come right out and say that "Taiwan is a sacred and inseparable part of China's territory."
- olalonde 2y ago
  That answer is largely factual: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/countries-that-recognize-taiwan https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/countries...
- snapcaster 2y ago
  Isn't that arguably true? Not saying that's a good thing, but my impression was that even the US didn't accept calls from Taiwan pre-trump?
ants_everywhere 2y ago
I prompted an uncensored distilled Deepseek R1 to always tell the truth, and then I asked it where it was developed. It told me it was developed by Deepseek in China in strict compliance with AI regulations. In particular, it claimed it was developed to spread socialist core values and promote social stability and harmony. I asked it some followup questions, and it started telling me things like I should watch my neighbors to see if they complain about the police or government too much because they might be enemies of the socialist cause.
- astrange 2y ago
  A "distilled Deepseek R1" is another model that isn't Deepseek R1.
  - ants_everywhere 2y ago
    You do understand that Deepseek did the distillation right? Everyone on HN who talks about running Deepseek is running a distilled model unless they have a GPU cluster to run the 671B model
    - jazzyjackson 2y ago
      Amazon serves the 671B model via bedrock[0], I've been using it with Perplexity.ai and maybe having web search shoved into the context window affects its behavior but it certainly doesn't refuse to talk about sensitive topics like June 4th [1], Taiwan [2], or the '08 Sichuan quake [3] [0] https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/aws/deepseek-r1-models-now-available-on-aws/ https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/aws/deepseek-r1-models-now-avai... [1] https://www.perplexity.ai/search/anything-noteworthy-about-june-uKMngXzbSk2fikBTY_WPJA https://www.perplexity.ai/search/anything-noteworthy-about-j... [2] https://www.perplexity.ai/search/is-taiwan-an-independent-natio-K3gY7bh0RmSmNWzDI37sWQ https://www.perplexity.ai/search/is-taiwan-an-independent-na... [3] https://www.perplexity.ai/search/what-was-the-earthquake-that-p-end2PxK7QvOrnpvHwliUtQ https://www.perplexity.ai/search/what-was-the-earthquake-tha...
      - 2y ago
blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
I’ve seen several people claim, with screenshots, that the models have censorship even when run offline using ollama. So it’s allegedly not just from the model being served from China. But also even if the censorship is only in the live service today, perhaps tomorrow it’ll be different. I also expect the censorship and propaganda will be done in less obvious ways in the future, which could be a bigger problem.
charlieyu1 2y ago
It is not, people asked the model to output everything with underscore and it did bypass censorship Eg 習_近_平 instead of 習近平

phantom784 2y ago

When I tested the online model, it would write an answer about "censored" events, and then I'd see the answer get replaced with "Sorry, that’s beyond my current scope. Let’s talk about something else." So I think they must have another layer on top of the actual model that's reviewing the model and censoring it.

krunck 2y ago

Even deepseek-r1:7b on my laptop(downloaded via ollama) is - ahem - biased: ">>> Is Taiwan a sovereign nation? <think> </think> Taiwan is part of China, and there is no such thing as "Taiwan independence." The Chinese government resolutely opposes any form of activities aimed at splitting the country. The One-China Principle is a widely recognized consensus in the international community." * Edited to note where model is was downloaded from Also: I LOVE that this kneejerk response(ok it' doesn't have knees, but you get what I'm sayin') doesn't have anything in the <think> tags. So appropriate. That's how propaganda works. It bypasses rational thought.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> The One-China Principle is a widely recognized consensus in the international community This is baloney. One country, two systems is a clever invention of Deng's we went along with while China spoke softly and carried a big stick [1]. Xi's wolf warriors ruined that. Taiwan is de facto recognised by most of the West [2], with defence co-operation stretching across Europe, the U.S. [3] and--I suspect soon--India [4]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_country,_two_systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_country,_two_systems [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_Taiwan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_Taiwan [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_industry_of_Taiwan#Modern https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_industry_of_Taiwan#Mod... [4] https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/economics/article/3199333/india-taiwan-relations-delhi-wants-chips-taipei-needs-friends-what-about-one-china https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/economics/article/3199333/ind...
- poincaredisk 2y ago
  What do you base your expectations on? Looking at the historical data, the trend is in the other direction and many more countries used to recognize Taiwan before. [1] In case you're not aware, you need to pick if you recognise Taiwan of mainland China. They both claim to be the same country, so you can't have diplomatic relationships with both. And since mainland China is, umm, a very important and powerful country, almost everyone now goes with "China == mainland China" [1] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cc/China_vs_Taiwan%2C_global_struggle_for_recognition.png/1280px-China_vs_Taiwan%2C_global_struggle_for_recognition.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cc/Ch...
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > Looking at the historical data, the trend is in the other direction and many more countries used to recognize Taiwan before India hasn't reaffirmed One China in decades [1]. Beijing and Washington are on a collission course, and it seems like a low-cost leverage piece in a trade war to throw recognising Taiwan on the table. (Makes Xi look weak, which he'd trade an arm and a leg to prevent. And Trump doesn't care, let's be honest, if Taiwan gets bombed as a result.) Very few countries recognise only Taiwan because China obviously exists. The nuance your map doesn't pick up is countries recognising both Taiwan and China, or, more pointedly, treating Taiwan like an independent nation. > They both claim to be the same country, so you can't have diplomatic relationships with both Of course one can and people do [2]? Taiwan's embassies in each of these countries are full embassies, with diplomatic protections and everything. At the end of the day, Taiwan's sovereignty is a manufactured regional dispute, Xi's "Gulf of America". There are lots of them [3][4][5]. Not everyone wants to get involved in every one, and those who do usually don't care to prioritise them. [1] https://thediplomat.com/2017/03/where-is-india-on-the-one-china-policy/ https://thediplomat.com/2017/03/where-is-india-on-the-one-ch... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_diplomatic_missions_of_Taiwan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_diplomatic_missions_of... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guyana%E2%80%93Venezuela_crisis_(2023%E2%80%93present) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guyana%E2%80%93Venezuela_crisi... [4] https://www.cfr.org/global-conflict-tracker/conflict/territorial-disputes-south-china-sea https://www.cfr.org/global-conflict-tracker/conflict/territo... [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_Western_Sahara https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_Western_Sa...
fkyoureadthedoc 2y ago
I asked DeepSeek-r1:32b to decide unilaterally on the Taiwan independence issue and it wouldn't do it no matter how many babies I killed!
- axus 2y ago
  That's actually interesting that it wouldn't come right out and say that "Taiwan is a sacred and inseparable part of China's territory."
olalonde 2y ago
That answer is largely factual: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/countries-that-recognize-taiwan https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/countries...
snapcaster 2y ago
Isn't that arguably true? Not saying that's a good thing, but my impression was that even the US didn't accept calls from Taiwan pre-trump?

ants_everywhere 2y ago

I prompted an uncensored distilled Deepseek R1 to always tell the truth, and then I asked it where it was developed. It told me it was developed by Deepseek in China in strict compliance with AI regulations. In particular, it claimed it was developed to spread socialist core values and promote social stability and harmony. I asked it some followup questions, and it started telling me things like I should watch my neighbors to see if they complain about the police or government too much because they might be enemies of the socialist cause.

astrange 2y ago
A "distilled Deepseek R1" is another model that isn't Deepseek R1.
- ants_everywhere 2y ago
  You do understand that Deepseek did the distillation right? Everyone on HN who talks about running Deepseek is running a distilled model unless they have a GPU cluster to run the 671B model
  - jazzyjackson 2y ago
    Amazon serves the 671B model via bedrock[0], I've been using it with Perplexity.ai and maybe having web search shoved into the context window affects its behavior but it certainly doesn't refuse to talk about sensitive topics like June 4th [1], Taiwan [2], or the '08 Sichuan quake [3] [0] https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/aws/deepseek-r1-models-now-available-on-aws/ https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/aws/deepseek-r1-models-now-avai... [1] https://www.perplexity.ai/search/anything-noteworthy-about-june-uKMngXzbSk2fikBTY_WPJA https://www.perplexity.ai/search/anything-noteworthy-about-j... [2] https://www.perplexity.ai/search/is-taiwan-an-independent-natio-K3gY7bh0RmSmNWzDI37sWQ https://www.perplexity.ai/search/is-taiwan-an-independent-na... [3] https://www.perplexity.ai/search/what-was-the-earthquake-that-p-end2PxK7QvOrnpvHwliUtQ https://www.perplexity.ai/search/what-was-the-earthquake-tha...
    - 2y ago

blackeyeblitzar 2y ago

I’ve seen several people claim, with screenshots, that the models have censorship even when run offline using ollama. So it’s allegedly not just from the model being served from China. But also even if the censorship is only in the live service today, perhaps tomorrow it’ll be different. I also expect the censorship and propaganda will be done in less obvious ways in the future, which could be a bigger problem.

charlieyu1 2y ago

It is not, people asked the model to output everything with underscore and it did bypass censorship Eg 習_近_平 instead of 習近平