6 ms·

Zusie – My Relay Computer

133 points by xk3 2y ago

dang 2y ago
Related. Others? Zusie – My Relay Computer - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8711869 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8711869 - Dec 2014 (21 comments)
guerrilla 2y ago
> 8-bit data bus and 16-bit address bus What? That is very intense. If I were doing relays, I would have gone for 2 bits or something, 4 bits max. Hardcore.
- creer 2y ago
  Agreed, 8-bit data, 16-bit address (but 12-bit program counters) is massive for relays! That's a lot of relays to do anything. But it turns out their start was when they stumbled on 1500 relays in good condition. So they were set in relays from the start and could aim "rather" big. They do have a lot of relays.
dahart 2y ago
So cool! Should link to the project homepage http://www.nablaman.com/relay/ http://www.nablaman.com/relay/ Or the news page with pics & videos. http://www.nablaman.com/relay/progress.php http://www.nablaman.com/relay/progress.php Last update was in 2011, btw.
- serviceberry 2y ago
  I think that's the fate of every project like that. Not to take away from it, it's still fantastic and geeky. But at some point, you have this realization that you're pouring years of your life into something that is not only utterly useless, but also won't be appreciated by others. You can't even play Pong on it. There's literally nothing you can demo to non-nerds, other than "this device makes looks complicated and makes noise". Maybe you'll make it to HN more than a decade later, but that's it. No one will buy it from you. Your heirs will toss it out. It... sucks.
  - zelon88 2y ago
    And yet you've developed this knowledge for yourself that applies to other things. Among them you develop probably the most imperative skill which practically nobody focuses on; problem solving. And if you've got kids that share your interests they get that knowledge and experience also. Humans need hobbies. Humans need to explore their curiosities. If you're not doing this you're hiking or biking or gaming or going to the gym or kayaking or.... something equally useless.
    - serviceberry 2y ago
      Sure, but we're herd animals and also need validation, even if we're pretending not to. We go on a journey of self-discovery to Nepal so that we can talk to others how profound it was, etc. I'm not dissing hobbies, I'm just saying that building stuff like that is a very lonely hobby, which is why such projects almost always fizzle out.
    - progmetaldev 2y ago
      I really feel this statement. I'm being forced out of a company that is struggling to pay my salary, after almost 18 years. This is a career where I taught myself and continued (and continue) to improve. I know that my best skill is the ability to solve unique problems, and that's mostly been from needing to complete a project or the business loses their time and money. For most of my career, I have been the sole developer, and impostor syndrome is real and haunting. Having HN, and following various news and blog sources, I think I am in a good place with my knowledge. It's just transferring to another company after almost two decades that is the scary part. Having a senior position, but still very much wanting to be involved in coding and architecture, makes me nervous that I won't be able to keep my same lifestyle without going into full-time management. Problem solving is often tossed to the side for a "good enough" answer. I understand that as a business need, but when things start to get really complicated, pulling in an existing library or solution is often not possible.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
    > The result is largely who you became while you build it, not the physical end product. - malux85, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41516755 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41516755
- dunham 2y ago
  There was an update in November 2013 at the end of https://www.nablaman.com/relay/story.php https://www.nablaman.com/relay/story.php > The last time I wrote something here was two and a half years ago. Since then, Zusie has been more or less finished. Also, I've moved to a different city, and Zusie has followed along.
EvanAnderson 2y ago
As of late I've been watching a Youtube creator, DiPDoT[0], building a relay computer. DiPTDoT's project is still in-progress. His computer has an 8-bit data bus and a 16-bit address bus[1], like the Zusie. His registers are a little more generous than the Zusie. I really enjoy the sound of DiPDoT's test rigs running his cards thru functional testing. The rhythm of a relaying computer running code with loops is probably pretty fun. [0] https://www.youtube.com/@dipdoting https://www.youtube.com/@dipdoting [1] https://youtu.be/GwNZFNtruTY?t=60 https://youtu.be/GwNZFNtruTY?t=60
- alnwlsn 2y ago
  One of the most polished diy relay computers (and video series) I've seen is by Paul Law [0]. He's been working on it for over 10 years, and has just started a series on using it to calculate Pi. [0] https://www.youtube.com/@paul80nd https://www.youtube.com/@paul80nd
- artemonster 2y ago
  the guy uses same relays as I do and he solders them onto pcb. Ive learned my lesson the hard way that these relays are unreliable and they do die, so in my design all of relays are socketed. hope the guy will adjust his design too
  - pvitz 2y ago
    Do you buy the sockets or do you have a custom solution for that?
    - artemonster 2y ago
      these are just simple DIL sockets
ggerules 2y ago
This is a very cool project! I wish this was around when I was teaching computer architecture. I use to challenge students to think outside the box when it came to switchs. One example is to build a computer out of paperclips.[1] The book can be found on eBay, Amazon and other used/old book outlets. [1] "How to build a working digital computer", Edward Alcosser, 1968
sho_hn 2y ago
I 3D printed some Zuse-style mechanical NAND gates last year, that was a lot of fun and makes for a great fidget toy: https://mero.ng/i/vMdqQYJG.jpg https://mero.ng/i/vMdqQYJG.jpg I've kind of given some thought of doing a higher-quality metal production run of these with nice finish and engravings of the inputs and outputs as a geeky desk fidget. Model credit goes here (and of course to the original Zuse patent application the design is from), although I made a NAND remix as I wanted a universal gate and fixed up all of the tolerances and still really have to upload my version: https://www.printables.com/model/69642-zuse-inspired-z1-logic-gate-demonstration-set-impr https://www.printables.com/model/69642-zuse-inspired-z1-logi...
genpfault 2y ago
(2011)?
gwbas1c 2y ago
I'd love to see, and hear, a video of the computer in operation
- myth2018 2y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42889686 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42889686
  - gwbas1c 2y ago
    I see "This video displays Zusie the Relay Computer...", but there's no actual video to see.
    - msandin 2y ago
      https://youtu.be/-ReqdyCxZ9I?si=e6WjONWMOGHG7Wja https://youtu.be/-ReqdyCxZ9I?si=e6WjONWMOGHG7Wja Sounds fantastic on YouTube, even better IRL.
artemonster 2y ago
Shameless plug for my relay computer: https://github.com/artemonster/relay-cpu https://github.com/artemonster/relay-cpu
creer 2y ago
There is now a whole bunch of relay computers on youtube! It's become easier to do it seems. This one 2011, some more recent on youtube.
bittercynic 2y ago
That's beautiful and mesmerizing - video here: http://www.nablaman.com/relay/progress.php http://www.nablaman.com/relay/progress.php I built one of these[0] a few years ago, and really enjoyed the build process and playing around with it. It was a pretty big project, but no special skills required. [0] https://relaysbc.sourceforge.net/ https://relaysbc.sourceforge.net/
- sitkack 2y ago
  The creator of relaysbc posts here every so often. The bare PCB is here https://www.tindie.com/products/jhallen/single-board-relay-computer/ https://www.tindie.com/products/jhallen/single-board-relay-c... I have not completed mine yet, what was the hardest part during assembly or the gotcha you had to debug?
  - bittercynic 2y ago
    I think the hardest part was trying to clean the flux off of the board, and I never did get it that clean. I chose to use sockets for the relays, and at first it had some weirdly inconsistent behavior. Removing and re-installing all the relays fixed it, though. I went very slowly and checked my work as I went. I don't understand the circuit well enough to debug it, so I was very motivated to work accurately.
rahen 2y ago
Another relay computer for those interested, with hand built DRAM! http://www.northdownfarm.co.uk/rory/tim/tim-8.htm http://www.northdownfarm.co.uk/rory/tim/tim-8.htm
msandin 2y ago
Having seen this in person my favorite aspect is the sound it makes, absolutely mesmerizing.
dl4la 2y ago
[dead]

133 points by xk3 2y ago

dang 2y ago

Related. Others? Zusie – My Relay Computer - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8711869 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8711869 - Dec 2014 (21 comments)

guerrilla 2y ago

> 8-bit data bus and 16-bit address bus What? That is very intense. If I were doing relays, I would have gone for 2 bits or something, 4 bits max. Hardcore.

creer 2y ago
Agreed, 8-bit data, 16-bit address (but 12-bit program counters) is massive for relays! That's a lot of relays to do anything. But it turns out their start was when they stumbled on 1500 relays in good condition. So they were set in relays from the start and could aim "rather" big. They do have a lot of relays.

dahart 2y ago

So cool! Should link to the project homepage http://www.nablaman.com/relay/ http://www.nablaman.com/relay/ Or the news page with pics & videos. http://www.nablaman.com/relay/progress.php http://www.nablaman.com/relay/progress.php Last update was in 2011, btw.

serviceberry 2y ago
I think that's the fate of every project like that. Not to take away from it, it's still fantastic and geeky. But at some point, you have this realization that you're pouring years of your life into something that is not only utterly useless, but also won't be appreciated by others. You can't even play Pong on it. There's literally nothing you can demo to non-nerds, other than "this device makes looks complicated and makes noise". Maybe you'll make it to HN more than a decade later, but that's it. No one will buy it from you. Your heirs will toss it out. It... sucks.
- zelon88 2y ago
  And yet you've developed this knowledge for yourself that applies to other things. Among them you develop probably the most imperative skill which practically nobody focuses on; problem solving. And if you've got kids that share your interests they get that knowledge and experience also. Humans need hobbies. Humans need to explore their curiosities. If you're not doing this you're hiking or biking or gaming or going to the gym or kayaking or.... something equally useless.
  - serviceberry 2y ago
    Sure, but we're herd animals and also need validation, even if we're pretending not to. We go on a journey of self-discovery to Nepal so that we can talk to others how profound it was, etc. I'm not dissing hobbies, I'm just saying that building stuff like that is a very lonely hobby, which is why such projects almost always fizzle out.
  - progmetaldev 2y ago
    I really feel this statement. I'm being forced out of a company that is struggling to pay my salary, after almost 18 years. This is a career where I taught myself and continued (and continue) to improve. I know that my best skill is the ability to solve unique problems, and that's mostly been from needing to complete a project or the business loses their time and money. For most of my career, I have been the sole developer, and impostor syndrome is real and haunting. Having HN, and following various news and blog sources, I think I am in a good place with my knowledge. It's just transferring to another company after almost two decades that is the scary part. Having a senior position, but still very much wanting to be involved in coding and architecture, makes me nervous that I won't be able to keep my same lifestyle without going into full-time management. Problem solving is often tossed to the side for a "good enough" answer. I understand that as a business need, but when things start to get really complicated, pulling in an existing library or solution is often not possible.
- yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
  > The result is largely who you became while you build it, not the physical end product. - malux85, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41516755 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41516755
dunham 2y ago
There was an update in November 2013 at the end of https://www.nablaman.com/relay/story.php https://www.nablaman.com/relay/story.php > The last time I wrote something here was two and a half years ago. Since then, Zusie has been more or less finished. Also, I've moved to a different city, and Zusie has followed along.

EvanAnderson 2y ago

As of late I've been watching a Youtube creator, DiPDoT[0], building a relay computer. DiPTDoT's project is still in-progress. His computer has an 8-bit data bus and a 16-bit address bus[1], like the Zusie. His registers are a little more generous than the Zusie. I really enjoy the sound of DiPDoT's test rigs running his cards thru functional testing. The rhythm of a relaying computer running code with loops is probably pretty fun. [0] https://www.youtube.com/@dipdoting https://www.youtube.com/@dipdoting [1] https://youtu.be/GwNZFNtruTY?t=60 https://youtu.be/GwNZFNtruTY?t=60

alnwlsn 2y ago
One of the most polished diy relay computers (and video series) I've seen is by Paul Law [0]. He's been working on it for over 10 years, and has just started a series on using it to calculate Pi. [0] https://www.youtube.com/@paul80nd https://www.youtube.com/@paul80nd
artemonster 2y ago
the guy uses same relays as I do and he solders them onto pcb. Ive learned my lesson the hard way that these relays are unreliable and they do die, so in my design all of relays are socketed. hope the guy will adjust his design too
- pvitz 2y ago
  Do you buy the sockets or do you have a custom solution for that?
  - artemonster 2y ago
    these are just simple DIL sockets

ggerules 2y ago

This is a very cool project! I wish this was around when I was teaching computer architecture. I use to challenge students to think outside the box when it came to switchs. One example is to build a computer out of paperclips.[1] The book can be found on eBay, Amazon and other used/old book outlets. [1] "How to build a working digital computer", Edward Alcosser, 1968

sho_hn 2y ago

I 3D printed some Zuse-style mechanical NAND gates last year, that was a lot of fun and makes for a great fidget toy: https://mero.ng/i/vMdqQYJG.jpg https://mero.ng/i/vMdqQYJG.jpg I've kind of given some thought of doing a higher-quality metal production run of these with nice finish and engravings of the inputs and outputs as a geeky desk fidget. Model credit goes here (and of course to the original Zuse patent application the design is from), although I made a NAND remix as I wanted a universal gate and fixed up all of the tolerances and still really have to upload my version: https://www.printables.com/model/69642-zuse-inspired-z1-logic-gate-demonstration-set-impr https://www.printables.com/model/69642-zuse-inspired-z1-logi...

genpfault 2y ago

(2011)?

gwbas1c 2y ago

I'd love to see, and hear, a video of the computer in operation

myth2018 2y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42889686 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42889686
- gwbas1c 2y ago
  I see "This video displays Zusie the Relay Computer...", but there's no actual video to see.
  - msandin 2y ago
    https://youtu.be/-ReqdyCxZ9I?si=e6WjONWMOGHG7Wja https://youtu.be/-ReqdyCxZ9I?si=e6WjONWMOGHG7Wja Sounds fantastic on YouTube, even better IRL.

artemonster 2y ago

Shameless plug for my relay computer: https://github.com/artemonster/relay-cpu https://github.com/artemonster/relay-cpu

creer 2y ago

There is now a whole bunch of relay computers on youtube! It's become easier to do it seems. This one 2011, some more recent on youtube.

bittercynic 2y ago

That's beautiful and mesmerizing - video here: http://www.nablaman.com/relay/progress.php http://www.nablaman.com/relay/progress.php I built one of these[0] a few years ago, and really enjoyed the build process and playing around with it. It was a pretty big project, but no special skills required. [0] https://relaysbc.sourceforge.net/ https://relaysbc.sourceforge.net/

sitkack 2y ago
The creator of relaysbc posts here every so often. The bare PCB is here https://www.tindie.com/products/jhallen/single-board-relay-computer/ https://www.tindie.com/products/jhallen/single-board-relay-c... I have not completed mine yet, what was the hardest part during assembly or the gotcha you had to debug?
- bittercynic 2y ago
  I think the hardest part was trying to clean the flux off of the board, and I never did get it that clean. I chose to use sockets for the relays, and at first it had some weirdly inconsistent behavior. Removing and re-installing all the relays fixed it, though. I went very slowly and checked my work as I went. I don't understand the circuit well enough to debug it, so I was very motivated to work accurately.

rahen 2y ago

Another relay computer for those interested, with hand built DRAM! http://www.northdownfarm.co.uk/rory/tim/tim-8.htm http://www.northdownfarm.co.uk/rory/tim/tim-8.htm

msandin 2y ago

Having seen this in person my favorite aspect is the sound it makes, absolutely mesmerizing.

dl4la 2y ago

[dead]