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>The Committee finds that the domestic activities of the intelligence community at times violated specific statutory prohibitions and infringed the constitution

>The Committee finds that the domestic activities of the intelligence community at times violated specific statutory prohibitions and infringed the constitutional rights of American citizens. The legal questions involved in intelligence programs were often not considered. On other occasions, they were intentionally disregarded in the belief that because the programs served the "national security" the law did not apply. While intelligence officers on occasion failed to disclose to their superiors programs which were illegal or of questionable legality, the Committee finds that the most serious breaches of duty were those of senior officials, who were responsible for controlling intelligence activities and generally failed to assure compliance with the law.[1] Many of the techniques used would be intolerable in a democratic society even if all of the targets had been involved in violent activity, but COINTELPRO went far beyond that ... the Bureau conducted a sophisticated vigilante operation aimed squarely at preventing the exercise of First Amendment rights of speech and association, on the theory that preventing the growth of dangerous groups and the propagation of dangerous ideas would protect the national security and deter violence. So how are we going to prevent history from repeating itself (which it looks like it already is)? All it takes for bad people to win, is for good people to do nothing.

runjake 2y ago
Coming to a reasonable consensus on what constitutes good and bad would be a start. We can’t even agree on that, in the US, at least.
aaroninsf 2y ago
Something to keep in mind trying to reason about appropriate responses and preparation: The IC now has a century or so invested in perfecting the techniques whereby good people are led to do either nothing or bad thing, some of which are almost impossible to either detect or disrupt unless you are actively on guard—and that may well not save you. One analogy is to image yourself the target of "pick up artist" strategies backed by state-level resources. Not just one person matching their manipulation—based on focused study on human motivation, belief steering, and behavior steering—but an institution. Against the concerted efforts and craft of a committed IC you and I are utterly helpless... ...as individuals. Systemic confrontation and disruption is IMO the only viable path to preventing this sort of abuse under people like Patel.
sleepybrett 2y ago
> So how are we going to prevent history from repeating itself (which it looks like it already is)? This kind of operation has never stopped.
JohnBrookz 2y ago
Historically you pretty much have to wait for the institutions to over extend itself before an opportunity arises for means reversion. Fascism can never be satisfied with the status quo- it must take actions for actions sake. The enemy is always inferior yet all encompassing. Fascists will always lose in a war of equals because the longer they stay in power the further they stray from reality.
smitty1110 2y ago
You need Congress to make clear, explicit changes to laws on the subject. Not just to add additional restrictions, but to make changes to liability. Right now, a lot of violations will get chastised in court, but the officials responsible will face no consequences due to qualified immunity. I don't claim to know what the right was to address this situation is, this is a thorny legal issue, but someone needs to think through options and consequences.
- freeone3000 2y ago
  Remove the concept of qualified immunity (which has no congress-passed law creating it as a concept) and replace its utility against spurious prosecution with a blanket mens rea requirement for individual blame for regulatory offenses in an official capacity.
joe_the_user 2y ago
The program showed the "bad people" were already in charge and using covert method to remove their enemies. Cointel in particular was revealed by the efforts of radicals as a one-time thing. There's no reason to think that programs of it's sort ever stopped (though I'd guess levels of activity naturally waxed and waned, there haven't been the level of assassinations we saw in 60s but all probably just involves a different emphasis within the programs). The main thing is that the existence of a large secret agencies maintaining whatever secrets they deem necessary makes a mockery of democracy in and of itself (beyond all the other things that do this in the US).
cdme 2y ago
We aren't — the current administration is going to accelerate civil rights abuses not address them.
lif 2y ago
the "bad" people you mention need "good" people to work for them so yeah, when will ethics > money?
hagbard_c 2y ago
Has this ever stopped? Judging by recent events - The FBI-staged kidnapping of the governor of Michigan, the heavy FBI involvement in the "J6 riots" - it looks like the program is as alive as ever. I also don´t think the new FBI director will change much about this other than possibly a change of ideological focus. That is, unless Patel makes good on his desire to "rebuild the organisation from the bottom up" which I somehow doubt. After the Soviet Union fell apart the KGB was "abolished" and the FSB took its place. Did this really change the organisation when the FSB was largely staffed by former KGB personnel from top to bottom? The same would most likely be true for a "reformed" FBI.

runjake 2y ago

Coming to a reasonable consensus on what constitutes good and bad would be a start. We can’t even agree on that, in the US, at least.

aaroninsf 2y ago

Something to keep in mind trying to reason about appropriate responses and preparation: The IC now has a century or so invested in perfecting the techniques whereby good people are led to do either nothing or bad thing, some of which are almost impossible to either detect or disrupt unless you are actively on guard—and that may well not save you. One analogy is to image yourself the target of "pick up artist" strategies backed by state-level resources. Not just one person matching their manipulation—based on focused study on human motivation, belief steering, and behavior steering—but an institution. Against the concerted efforts and craft of a committed IC you and I are utterly helpless... ...as individuals. Systemic confrontation and disruption is IMO the only viable path to preventing this sort of abuse under people like Patel.

sleepybrett 2y ago

> So how are we going to prevent history from repeating itself (which it looks like it already is)? This kind of operation has never stopped.

JohnBrookz 2y ago

Historically you pretty much have to wait for the institutions to over extend itself before an opportunity arises for means reversion. Fascism can never be satisfied with the status quo- it must take actions for actions sake. The enemy is always inferior yet all encompassing. Fascists will always lose in a war of equals because the longer they stay in power the further they stray from reality.

smitty1110 2y ago

You need Congress to make clear, explicit changes to laws on the subject. Not just to add additional restrictions, but to make changes to liability. Right now, a lot of violations will get chastised in court, but the officials responsible will face no consequences due to qualified immunity. I don't claim to know what the right was to address this situation is, this is a thorny legal issue, but someone needs to think through options and consequences.

freeone3000 2y ago
Remove the concept of qualified immunity (which has no congress-passed law creating it as a concept) and replace its utility against spurious prosecution with a blanket mens rea requirement for individual blame for regulatory offenses in an official capacity.

joe_the_user 2y ago

The program showed the "bad people" were already in charge and using covert method to remove their enemies. Cointel in particular was revealed by the efforts of radicals as a one-time thing. There's no reason to think that programs of it's sort ever stopped (though I'd guess levels of activity naturally waxed and waned, there haven't been the level of assassinations we saw in 60s but all probably just involves a different emphasis within the programs). The main thing is that the existence of a large secret agencies maintaining whatever secrets they deem necessary makes a mockery of democracy in and of itself (beyond all the other things that do this in the US).

cdme 2y ago

We aren't — the current administration is going to accelerate civil rights abuses not address them.

lif 2y ago

the "bad" people you mention need "good" people to work for them so yeah, when will ethics > money?

hagbard_c 2y ago

Has this ever stopped? Judging by recent events - The FBI-staged kidnapping of the governor of Michigan, the heavy FBI involvement in the "J6 riots" - it looks like the program is as alive as ever. I also don´t think the new FBI director will change much about this other than possibly a change of ideological focus. That is, unless Patel makes good on his desire to "rebuild the organisation from the bottom up" which I somehow doubt. After the Soviet Union fell apart the KGB was "abolished" and the FSB took its place. Did this really change the organisation when the FSB was largely staffed by former KGB personnel from top to bottom? The same would most likely be true for a "reformed" FBI.