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In economics, there is a concept of “revealed preference”. 80%+ of teens own iPhones https://www.pymnts.com/consumer-insights/2023/apple-iphone-remains-teens-
by scarface_74 2y ago
In economics, there is a concept of “revealed preference”.
80%+ of teens own iPhones
https://www.pymnts.com/consumer-insights/2023/apple-iphone-remains-teens-preferred-mobile-device/ https://www.pymnts.com/consumer-insights/2023/apple-iphone-r...
And this is the percent of teens on various social media platforms
https://www.sentiment.io/how-many-teens-use-social-media/#t-1705002742694 https://www.sentiment.io/how-many-teens-use-social-media/#t-...
- bee_rider 2y agoThe alternative to an iPhone is an Android phone. They are both big tech, but one is built by a fairly invasive anti-competitive villain, while the other is build by the flagship company of surveillance capitalism. No good option, but one is clearly worse, right?
- scarface_74 2y agoThere are always open source alternatives that are perfectly acceptable according to HN…
- bee_rider 2y agoWell I don’t know this HN guy but I think he’s wrong, haha. (I mean it is a giant website full of tech people so of course we’re going to over-estimate the practicality of some extremely niche techie solution).
- lukeschlather 2y agoI don't know. Apple does place significant barriers to open source software. And this isn't just an innocuous thing, it means you're likely to have more trouble locating a free and safe application to do some simple task and likely to be steered toward adware. And Apple keeps their hands clean on paper but they make a lot of money off of adware on iOS.
- trescenzi 2y agoThere are two real options, both big tech, and then layer peer pressure on top of that. People pick between options they don’t like all the time.
- add-sub-mul-div 2y agoThis concept isn't useful in a scenario in which owning or associating with something has become a near-necessity. This is "revealed control." Very few teens (or even adults) have the luxury of going the Stallman route. Pet peeve, we can't stop thinking just because an idea in the past has a specious connection to now.
- scarface_74 2y agoAnd completely ignoring the other link showing how many teenagers are on various social media platforms? But according to HN, teenagers could always use an open source alternative to Android on their phone if they were so passionate about it.
- Secretmapper 2y agoThis thread honestly reminds me of that skit(?) or scene from a movie(?) where a news anchor chastised a climate scientist, because the scientist 'wore clothes that were mass produced in a factory that contributes to climate change'. I thought that scene was satire, but from this conversation thread, apparently not. 'If they were so passionate about climate change they would wear second hand clothes' Proceeds to still see how donated clothes are still a problem because of how they're processed - so see, you are still evil and hypocritical!
- scarface_74 2y agoAre you saying that teens can’t exist in society without social media? Unless you count HN as social media, currently the only social media site I’m on is LinkedIn. I don’t even participate in that unless I’m actively looking for a job. For group messaging. I use text messages and I just deleted my Reddit account.
- add-sub-mul-div 2y agoA teenager today probably feels compelled to be on social media in order to be socially relevant.
- tivert 2y ago> In economics, there is a concept of “revealed preference”. What's your point? If it's "you teens actually love and trust big tech," I don't think you can make that leap from "revealed preference" data. People buy things for a lot of reasons, and buy from people they don't trust if they have no other realistic option.
- scarface_74 2y agoThey have no realistic option than use the social media sites in the link I included?
- bigbacaloa 2y agoRealistically no if you think about how teen social groups work.
- thrance 2y agoNo teen wants to be that weird kid that's not on social media, has a shitty phone, etc. Social pressure and the desire to fit in is extreme at that age, which doesn't prevent teens from understanding how rotten social media and tech are. So technically they have a choice, but c'mon, I feel like I'm talking to Ayn Rand here.
- lukev 2y agoKind of, yes. It is a completely coherent position to dislike and distrust a platform, and still use it daily because that's where your friends are. Network effects are powerful. It's entirely possible for a platform to be popular even if _nobody_ is happy with it, due to a "tragedy of the commons"-like effect.
- andsoitis 2y ago> completely coherent position to dislike and distrust a platform, and still use it daily because that's where your friends are. The only issue is the article makes it sound that your friends also dislike and distrust those same places. If that were true, it begs the question why are "all the teens" using it then? OR, alternatively, the survey and reporting conclusion is (somewhat) wrong or missing nuance.
- lkrubner 2y agoPreferences change before behavior changes, especially where network effects are strong. Preference has to become strongly negative before you'll see the change in behavior. But then the change can happen fast. A social network can suffer the social equivalent of a "Minsky moment." Or as Hemingway said, they can go broke two ways, first slowly, then suddenly.
- regularization 2y agoFigured I would here this cartoon here https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/we-should-improve-society-somewhat https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/we-should-improve-society-som... I talk with elderly people who do not have smartphones, and they tell me how difficult it is to navigate the modern world without them - doctor offices who want to send a text or MFA or the like. That we have a Google/Apple monopoly (or any nationwide Verizon/AT&T monopoly, with maybe one or two smaller players) is not much of a gotcha. I have more faith in the wisdom of the youth than your neoclassical theories of political economy. Of course virtually everything is an oligopoly nowadays. UMG, Sony, Warner own at least 65% of global music. Media, accounting, advertising, breakfast cereals, go down the list - most commodities are sold by an oligopoly of four or less companies. A theory of political economy where somehow consumers are "choosing" this system is what is bankruptcy, not the understanding of the working youth who resent this.
- hn_throwaway_99 2y ago> they tell me how difficult it is to navigate the modern world without them - doctor offices who want to send a text or MFA or the like. But that just requires any cellphone that can text, and cell phones have been common for 25 years. Are there some specific examples of where you have to have a smartphone?
- whycome 2y agoThey already have a landline phone and don’t need a cell. And then the options for dumb phones are slim.
- scarface_74 2y agoIt took me one minute to find this https://www.t-mobile.com/cell-phone/tcl-flip-go https://www.t-mobile.com/cell-phone/tcl-flip-go
- whycome 2y agoThat's a great example actually. What search terms led you there? Is there a category for nonsmartphone there? What does someone with limited knowledge of available options do there?
- netcan 2y agoI always thought "revealed preference" was a rhetorical stretch. Makes sense opposite "stated preference," but on its own it is just an obtuse way of saying behaviour or habits. In any case you can be both a consumer and a critique. In fact, the most online people are often the most critical. Ironic, but...
- pjc50 2y agoYou can only reveal a preference among available choices. A closeup magician can show you a deck of cards, get you to pick one, and it will be his choice of card not yours.
- scarface_74 2y agoAnd they have to use the social media sites they don’t trust?
- potato3732842 2y agoI don't trust the cops but if you won't leave my property I'm still gonna call them to get a bullet put in you rather than DIY it. Example is absurd but in its absurdity it makes it very clear that the society that we live in all but mandated that we do bend over and comply with all manner of things if we want to live "normal" lives. People would recoil in horror if you shoot someone over something petty, the expectation is that you call the cops and let them make the call.
- scarface_74 2y agoAnd using social media is life or death? But many would say if you broke into their house, shoot first and call the cops afterwards. I don’t personally own a gun. But if I lived in a rural area or a high crime area I would. But I still wouldn’t carry.
- potato3732842 2y ago
- cess11 2y agoThis has a 'if they're so poor how come I see them having iPhones' kind of vibe. I have a smartphone that I hate, because I can't get rid of the "Big Tech" part of it. It's where I end up because the bank cartel where I live has an identification service that only supports MICROS~1 and Intel ISA on laptop and desktop systems. Now, I'm not a teen, but I'm pretty sure things aren't different for them, they are likely forced into "Big Tech" under the threat of misery.
- skywhopper 2y agoThings required to navigate modern life are not natural “preferences”.
- scarface_74 2y agoYou need social media to navigate life? That was the link I posted.
- drweevil 2y agoWhat are the conditions that must hold for "revealed preference" to be a relevant measurement? In an economy dominated by cartels it would not seem to convey much information relevant to preference, given lack of consumer choice.
- scarface_74 2y agoIs anyone forced to use social media?
- nickthegreek 2y agoSadly, many small businesses are basically forced to be in order to be found/relevant.
- scarface_74 2y agoWe are talking about teens.
- ryandrake 2y agoVery true, and also, no businesses are literally forced (by the law or otherwise) to use social media. They voluntarily do it for the imagined or real business benefits.
- ceph_ 2y agoYes teens are forced to use social media or miss out on interacting with and making friends. The longitudinal facebook/Instagram study that came out a few years ago found that those who abstained felt ostracized. You sound like a boomer who says kids don't need a phone and should just go knock on another kids door to make friends.
- scarface_74 2y agoWell you realize that kids aren’t on Facebook right? And if kids hated social media so much as a group, they could just use group text messages - especially with RCS and 80% of US teens owning iPhones anyway.
- afavour 2y agoNone of those stats mean they trust the platforms though. Just that they consider them to be an indispensable part of life. Which is revealing in itself! But when I think back to my first days using Facebook the thought never occurred to me that I couldn’t trust them. Naïveté in my part for sure but I think it’s notable that todays young folks have wised up.
- sylens 2y agoTo be fair, the mid 00's was the transition time from the open web to the platform times we live in now. There was no immediate reason to distrust a social media site based on the social media sites that had come before it. After all, you were just writing inside jokes on each other's wall at the time, before News Feed. I think your perspective may have been different if you grew up seeing it weaponized and your data constantly being stolen
- bigbacaloa 2y agoPeople own mobile devices because they must in order to function in contemporary society, not because they trust the agents behind them. I can't do banking, park my car, buy transport passes, etc. without a mobile device. That doesn't mean I trust any of the tech actors behind the programs I use on it. In fact, using it regularly makes me more suspicious of them than I already was.
- GaggiX 2y ago>80%+ of teens own iPhones In the US*
- scarface_74 2y ago“Majority of US teens have lost trust in BigTech”.
- GaggiX 2y agoThey are two different reports, and I imagine that the concept of "revealed preference" exists outside of the US too ahah
- WindyMiller 2y agoDo you think kids who hang out at the mall really love the management of the mall?
- scarface_74 2y agoIf the mall were the same cesspool that modern social media is, I wouldn’t be going there.
- janalsncm 2y agoWould you say the same thing about heroin users? That they have “revealed” a preference for heroin by continually using an addictive product? And if so, how morally bankrupt are we as a country that we throw kids to the wolves that is AI-induced addiction rather than, I don’t know, regulating the industry? I got into tech because I like programming and making cool things, but that doesn’t mean I have to agree with cold blooded abuse of kids to make a dollar.
- scarface_74 2y agoWell, back when drug use only affected “the inner city” the country use to say it’s because of lack of morals, not putting God first and “absentee fathers”.
- dahart 2y agoYour argument there is specious - tempting to see an implied point but on closer inspection doesn’t hold up. Only your first link about phones reveals any preference in the economic sense, and it’s irrelevant to this article. Your link about social media does not demonstrate the economic concept of revealed preference at all, since the subjects aren’t making an exclusive choice, they can and do use multiple sites, since social media doesn’t cost money, and since these are sites with very different social functions. It doesn’t make sense to ask whether kids prefer YouTube to WhatsApp, it’s like asking whether you prefer eating broccoli to playing piano to people who do both.
- scarface_74 2y agoThere is a revealed preferences of use vs non use.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- tivert 2y ago> There is a revealed preferences of use vs non use. If you, scarface_74, are locked in a cell and fed rotten food, and you choose to eat it instead of starve, it means you like it, right? You've revealed your preference for rotten food, so I shouldn't listen to you when you say you don't like it. I think you should explain yourself more clearly. It really feels like you're trying to paper over specious argument with vagueness.
- scarface_74 2y agoI scarface_74, removed Facebook from my phone, never used TikTok, deleted my Reddit account, never used Instagram, and only use LinkedIn when im actively looking for a job. I use text messages to talk to people.
- tivert 2y agoAre you, scarface_74, a US teen? If you are, are you a typical US teen? Because if you aren't, you are probably missing something relevant about being a US teen, if you're thinking they should just do what you do.