8 ms·

Sorry for the whataboutism, but the US looks more and more hypocrite when they sell themselves as the paragons of democracy and free trade, ready to save the wo

by amlib 2y ago

Sorry for the whataboutism, but the US looks more and more hypocrite when they sell themselves as the paragons of democracy and free trade, ready to save the world from authoritarian China but are fine selling AI and AI hardware (and armament, but that's another matter...) to Israel's oppressive regime which clearly uses it to persecute and kill innocent Palestinians. It's all just dirty politics, in the end none of the people in power care if selling such technology feeds a monster or not, as long as they get their bags of money.

blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
[flagged]
- computerthings 2y ago
  > surveys indicated that an overwhelming majority of residents of Gaza supported Hamas Come on, nearly half of the inhabitants of Gaza are/were under 18. "Surveys" cannot make collective punishment legal, or annexation and ethnic cleansing for that matter. I'd say outright cutting off a whole population from food and going on TV to rant about how even the babies are terrorists isn't self-defense or security. If anything it's with a second set religious extremists that needs Hamas just like Hamas needs them. And in similar fashion, they use "Israel" as a shield for what they want, despite the Israelis who do respect human rights and international law, and get threatened for it. > You’re trying to separate Hamas from everyday people in Gaza They are separate. Each person is responsible for their actions. You can't speak of democracy and then casually ignore this.
  - blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
    I mentioned the surveys to indicate the complicity of the civilian population in Hamas’s actions. Often people claim the residents of Gaza didn’t vote for Hamas since the last election was in 2006. But the surveys reveal that most of them do support them and their religious terrorism. > "Surveys" cannot make collective punishment legal, or annexation and ethnic cleansing for that matter. What do you mean by annexation given that the entire region, including Jerusalem, the West Bank, and Gaza were occupied by Jewish people long before Islamic Arabs were in the area? What do you mean by ethnic cleansing given that Gaza’s population has grown rapidly over time, given Israel announces targets ahead of time, and given that most of Gaza’s residents still live? Israel could level all of Gaza but they haven’t done anything even remotely close to that. Even the highest claimed counts of deaths in Gaza would amount to a couple percent of the population. That doesn’t seem very successful for an ethnic cleansing. > outright cutting off a whole population from food Food and aid which Hamas stole and sold for money to fund terrorism to kill Israelis, all aided by UNRWA. > Each person is responsible for their actions. Right and Hamas was voted in by everyday people and still has their broad support despite terrorism, murder, and rape.
    - forgetfulness 2y ago
      Your impassionate argument in favor of an ethnic cleansing with bombs, starvation and lack of sanitation lies in stark contrast to this outrage about the Uyghurs' culture being erased with development and draconian imprisonment for suspected extremism, while at the same time, the West Bank was reduced to a patchwork of ghettos with draconian checkpoints where life is cheap if you are suspected to be an extremist. On the one hand, the slaughter of teenagers today in Gaza is justified because of the sins of their forefathers in electing Hamas, on the other, it's a genocidal atrocity that beards can only be so long in Xinjiang. The US is only more righteous for supporting America's Greatest Ally at the cost of the lives of it citizens, of those of Arab countries and, now with the TikTok ban, to its founding principles, in your world.
      - blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
        I think you're raising an important point that I acknowledge, and I need to process that more. But my immediate thought is to note that the two situations are very different to me. Uyghurs are indigenous to Xinjiang (more than anyone else), and Islamic Arabs in Gaza or the West Bank are not indigenous to the region around Israel (Jewish people are, while Gaza's residents are outsiders since Islamic Arabs aren't indigenous to the region). The CCP/PRC is erasing Uyghur life in Xinjiang and forcing their population growth downward, while Islamic Arabs living in Israel have full protection of the law, can practice their religion and culture freely, gain wealth, have families without forced sterilization or abortion, and live without the threat of the state kidnapping their children. There's no evidence of Uyghurs broadly supporting terrorist attacks, while there's evidence of Gaza residents overwhelmingly supporting things like repeated rocket attacks. There's more but basically there are enough differences that the situations can be treated differently. But at the same time, I do hope for a different, peaceful solution. Surveys show Islamic Arabs are generally quite happy under Israel, but that won't work for those in West Bank or Gaza perhaps. You are right that teenagers who aren't supportive of terrorism don't deserve violence. A two state solution still seems like the best idea, but Hamas has still not shown support for it, even though it would mean peaceful coexistence and could lead to a rebuilding of Gaza and West Bank.
- maxglute 2y ago
  >against Uyghur Muslims Against Islamic fundmentalist terrorism commited by Uyghur extremist. Rotating a bunch of Uyghurs through a few months of "reeducation/reradicalization" classes with minimal fatalities and pouring billions to improve regional infra + gdp is orders of magnitude more magnanimous than what happened/is happening in Gaza, or what's left it. It's delulu to think otherwise. It's more kids gloves than US prison industrial complex. And it more or less comprehensively solved the Uyghur extremism and attacks in PRC (100s of attacks over the years with 1000+ fatalities). Muslim world is far better off that PRC has successfully implemented securitization technology to deradicalize, because they have the most to gain from it, that's why there's broad support from Muslim leadership. PRC figured out how to actually eliminate radical terrorism without droning weddings, so of course a bunch of security cameras and Chinese lessons and first world infra has no equivalence to US funding Israel to murder and maim kids and turning most of Gaza into rubble.
  - blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
    Annexation by a violent dictatorship, cultural suppression, forced reeducation of hundreds of thousands of children separated from their parents, forced sterilizations, forced abortions, labor camps, and large number of deaths isn’t magnanimous. It’s genocide under international law. It is wild that you’re even defending this. > PRC has successfully implemented securitization technology Is that the best euphemism you could come up with? > that's why there's broad support from Muslim leadership I’m not even sure who you’re talking about, but having military or economic ties distorting things isn’t the same as support. Find me a quote of an Arab leader explicitly supporting the genocide of Uyghurs by the CCP. > PRC figured out how to actually eliminate radical terrorism without droning weddings This is a hilarious rebranding of what the CCP/PRC actually did, which is thousands of times worse and larger in scale than the few drone incidents you’re talking about.
    - maxglute 2y ago
      It absolutely does not qualify as genocide. Hence it's never been categorized as genocide by UN, unless you subscribe to Mike Pompeo's version international law. UN already recognize XJ as PRC, annexation is over, it's fully incorporated and legally part of soverign PRC soil for decades. There's more Uyghurs now then when campaign started (and ended)... at most it's cultural genocide, which unfortunately (or fortunately for everyone including west) ... is internationally permissible (no law against). Frankly some overdue cultural genocide to eliminate fundmentalism on 1% population to end decades of fundmental islamic terrorism is completely justifiable. It would be downright negligent and immoral not to, certainly more ethical than what US or ISR methods which you seem to play down. There aren't 100,000s children seperation. Parents rotate through reeducation for a few months, temporary seperation in interim, family reunited after. Entire program lasted ~4 years, even if you take peak US propaganda, 1/12 of Uyghurs is roughly life time internment for US blacks, except US minorities will end up up rotating through prison industrial complex for longer. Flip side of PRC enforcing family planning on previously exempt minorities is US banning abortions. No labour camps, just very generous rural labour transfer programs where they make multiple times current income. It's like if US had a jobs program that gave bottom quantile 50th percentile wages. Nor large number of deaths... barely any. Even peak retarded US propaganda doesn't pretend so. So yes, compared to Israel or US military actions, it's downright magnanimous. >euphemism It's not euphism, it's "safe city" technology, i.e. huawei surveillance for export. And countries are buying. Because you know, it's better than mowing the lawn with bombs, or spending a decade trying doing whatever the fuck GWOT was failing at that just ended up with (conservatively) 100,000s of dead muslims. > having military or economic ties distorting Except MENA has much closer military and economic ties with US... yet they still overwhelmingly side with PRC narrative over XJ. Entire excuse MENA leaders in PRC pocket is economically illiterate and geopolitcly stupid. There's isn't a quote of Arab leaders supporting genocide of Uyghurs, because none of them except occasionally Turkey recognize is Genocide. They recognize XJ securitization as deradicalization and antiterrorism effort, which it is, because it stopped both. And they endorse it, because they have most to gain from working deradicalization efforts. Which US does not have model for. Nor Israel. Well maybe Israel if they just keep murdering kids every few leap years. >thousands of times worse and larger My guy if you think US only responsible for a few drones, and Israel killed less Muslisms that PRC did in XJ, or if you think top is worse than bottom in pic below then you have some screws loose. Ultimately PRC did what US failed, fraction of the cost, and fraction of the lives, while adding 12x Afghan GDP per capita. Thinking that's 1000s worse and larger is delulu American math. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GBEy7HyaUAA3V7c.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GBEy7HyaUAA3V7c.jpg Let's just say if to Obama who got Nobel Peace prize trying to bring peace in the middle east, then Xi and Chen deserves 10.
- TeMPOraL 2y ago
  > but surveys indicated that an overwhelming majority of residents of Gaza supported Hamas even after the mass murder and rape of October 7. I'm not sure what result you expected. True or not, claims of atrocities committed by your government are always uncertain in practice - people will argue whichever way depending on their goals and beliefs (like we're doing here just now), so even if you believe them, unless you've actually seen them first-hand, they're always somewhat abstract considerations. Meanwhile, the fundamental reality for people in Gaza is that they're being bombed left and right by some outsiders. So when more outsiders come asking them whether they still like their government - government who, other than committing atrocities in what they sell as defensive war, are also responsible for keeping food, water and power flowing while bombs dropped by outsiders keep raining down your streets, does anyone expect majority to say "no, we don't like our government - please keep bombing us until we find a better one"? I bet if you polled the population of Iraq of Afghanistan in the middle of US invasions of either, you'd get similar results supporting the evil government too. Dropping ordnance on people has a way of skewing their responses in political polls away from what you'd expect in a stable democracy.
jijji 2y ago
I think the difference in your comment is that China is doing this to their own citizens. Israel is oppressing their enemy, who have voted for Hamas to be the leader of their government, which stated intent is to destroy Israel... Big difference.
- throwaway2037 2y ago
  > voted for Hamas I needed to remind myself of how many times they did that (once). It is incredible that Palestine hasn't had an election since 2006. Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_e...
  - disgruntledphd2 2y ago
    Yup, and as soon as Hamas were elected, the liberal world refused to deal with them. Never mind how convenient Hamas have been for Likud over the past few decades. It looks incredibly hypocritical to much of the world, and I can see why.
- VagabundoP 2y ago
  How many people alive in Gaza today voted for Hamas? What an incredibly awful comment to make after so many kids have gotten blown to bits by Israel as some sort of justification. Same sorts of stuff were said about Irish people during the Troubles btw.

by amlib 2y ago

blackeyeblitzar 2y ago

[flagged]

computerthings 2y ago
> surveys indicated that an overwhelming majority of residents of Gaza supported Hamas Come on, nearly half of the inhabitants of Gaza are/were under 18. "Surveys" cannot make collective punishment legal, or annexation and ethnic cleansing for that matter. I'd say outright cutting off a whole population from food and going on TV to rant about how even the babies are terrorists isn't self-defense or security. If anything it's with a second set religious extremists that needs Hamas just like Hamas needs them. And in similar fashion, they use "Israel" as a shield for what they want, despite the Israelis who do respect human rights and international law, and get threatened for it. > You’re trying to separate Hamas from everyday people in Gaza They are separate. Each person is responsible for their actions. You can't speak of democracy and then casually ignore this.
- blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
  I mentioned the surveys to indicate the complicity of the civilian population in Hamas’s actions. Often people claim the residents of Gaza didn’t vote for Hamas since the last election was in 2006. But the surveys reveal that most of them do support them and their religious terrorism. > "Surveys" cannot make collective punishment legal, or annexation and ethnic cleansing for that matter. What do you mean by annexation given that the entire region, including Jerusalem, the West Bank, and Gaza were occupied by Jewish people long before Islamic Arabs were in the area? What do you mean by ethnic cleansing given that Gaza’s population has grown rapidly over time, given Israel announces targets ahead of time, and given that most of Gaza’s residents still live? Israel could level all of Gaza but they haven’t done anything even remotely close to that. Even the highest claimed counts of deaths in Gaza would amount to a couple percent of the population. That doesn’t seem very successful for an ethnic cleansing. > outright cutting off a whole population from food Food and aid which Hamas stole and sold for money to fund terrorism to kill Israelis, all aided by UNRWA. > Each person is responsible for their actions. Right and Hamas was voted in by everyday people and still has their broad support despite terrorism, murder, and rape.
  - forgetfulness 2y ago
    Your impassionate argument in favor of an ethnic cleansing with bombs, starvation and lack of sanitation lies in stark contrast to this outrage about the Uyghurs' culture being erased with development and draconian imprisonment for suspected extremism, while at the same time, the West Bank was reduced to a patchwork of ghettos with draconian checkpoints where life is cheap if you are suspected to be an extremist. On the one hand, the slaughter of teenagers today in Gaza is justified because of the sins of their forefathers in electing Hamas, on the other, it's a genocidal atrocity that beards can only be so long in Xinjiang. The US is only more righteous for supporting America's Greatest Ally at the cost of the lives of it citizens, of those of Arab countries and, now with the TikTok ban, to its founding principles, in your world.
    - blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
      I think you're raising an important point that I acknowledge, and I need to process that more. But my immediate thought is to note that the two situations are very different to me. Uyghurs are indigenous to Xinjiang (more than anyone else), and Islamic Arabs in Gaza or the West Bank are not indigenous to the region around Israel (Jewish people are, while Gaza's residents are outsiders since Islamic Arabs aren't indigenous to the region). The CCP/PRC is erasing Uyghur life in Xinjiang and forcing their population growth downward, while Islamic Arabs living in Israel have full protection of the law, can practice their religion and culture freely, gain wealth, have families without forced sterilization or abortion, and live without the threat of the state kidnapping their children. There's no evidence of Uyghurs broadly supporting terrorist attacks, while there's evidence of Gaza residents overwhelmingly supporting things like repeated rocket attacks. There's more but basically there are enough differences that the situations can be treated differently. But at the same time, I do hope for a different, peaceful solution. Surveys show Islamic Arabs are generally quite happy under Israel, but that won't work for those in West Bank or Gaza perhaps. You are right that teenagers who aren't supportive of terrorism don't deserve violence. A two state solution still seems like the best idea, but Hamas has still not shown support for it, even though it would mean peaceful coexistence and could lead to a rebuilding of Gaza and West Bank.
maxglute 2y ago
>against Uyghur Muslims Against Islamic fundmentalist terrorism commited by Uyghur extremist. Rotating a bunch of Uyghurs through a few months of "reeducation/reradicalization" classes with minimal fatalities and pouring billions to improve regional infra + gdp is orders of magnitude more magnanimous than what happened/is happening in Gaza, or what's left it. It's delulu to think otherwise. It's more kids gloves than US prison industrial complex. And it more or less comprehensively solved the Uyghur extremism and attacks in PRC (100s of attacks over the years with 1000+ fatalities). Muslim world is far better off that PRC has successfully implemented securitization technology to deradicalize, because they have the most to gain from it, that's why there's broad support from Muslim leadership. PRC figured out how to actually eliminate radical terrorism without droning weddings, so of course a bunch of security cameras and Chinese lessons and first world infra has no equivalence to US funding Israel to murder and maim kids and turning most of Gaza into rubble.
- blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
  Annexation by a violent dictatorship, cultural suppression, forced reeducation of hundreds of thousands of children separated from their parents, forced sterilizations, forced abortions, labor camps, and large number of deaths isn’t magnanimous. It’s genocide under international law. It is wild that you’re even defending this. > PRC has successfully implemented securitization technology Is that the best euphemism you could come up with? > that's why there's broad support from Muslim leadership I’m not even sure who you’re talking about, but having military or economic ties distorting things isn’t the same as support. Find me a quote of an Arab leader explicitly supporting the genocide of Uyghurs by the CCP. > PRC figured out how to actually eliminate radical terrorism without droning weddings This is a hilarious rebranding of what the CCP/PRC actually did, which is thousands of times worse and larger in scale than the few drone incidents you’re talking about.
  - maxglute 2y ago
    It absolutely does not qualify as genocide. Hence it's never been categorized as genocide by UN, unless you subscribe to Mike Pompeo's version international law. UN already recognize XJ as PRC, annexation is over, it's fully incorporated and legally part of soverign PRC soil for decades. There's more Uyghurs now then when campaign started (and ended)... at most it's cultural genocide, which unfortunately (or fortunately for everyone including west) ... is internationally permissible (no law against). Frankly some overdue cultural genocide to eliminate fundmentalism on 1% population to end decades of fundmental islamic terrorism is completely justifiable. It would be downright negligent and immoral not to, certainly more ethical than what US or ISR methods which you seem to play down. There aren't 100,000s children seperation. Parents rotate through reeducation for a few months, temporary seperation in interim, family reunited after. Entire program lasted ~4 years, even if you take peak US propaganda, 1/12 of Uyghurs is roughly life time internment for US blacks, except US minorities will end up up rotating through prison industrial complex for longer. Flip side of PRC enforcing family planning on previously exempt minorities is US banning abortions. No labour camps, just very generous rural labour transfer programs where they make multiple times current income. It's like if US had a jobs program that gave bottom quantile 50th percentile wages. Nor large number of deaths... barely any. Even peak retarded US propaganda doesn't pretend so. So yes, compared to Israel or US military actions, it's downright magnanimous. >euphemism It's not euphism, it's "safe city" technology, i.e. huawei surveillance for export. And countries are buying. Because you know, it's better than mowing the lawn with bombs, or spending a decade trying doing whatever the fuck GWOT was failing at that just ended up with (conservatively) 100,000s of dead muslims. > having military or economic ties distorting Except MENA has much closer military and economic ties with US... yet they still overwhelmingly side with PRC narrative over XJ. Entire excuse MENA leaders in PRC pocket is economically illiterate and geopolitcly stupid. There's isn't a quote of Arab leaders supporting genocide of Uyghurs, because none of them except occasionally Turkey recognize is Genocide. They recognize XJ securitization as deradicalization and antiterrorism effort, which it is, because it stopped both. And they endorse it, because they have most to gain from working deradicalization efforts. Which US does not have model for. Nor Israel. Well maybe Israel if they just keep murdering kids every few leap years. >thousands of times worse and larger My guy if you think US only responsible for a few drones, and Israel killed less Muslisms that PRC did in XJ, or if you think top is worse than bottom in pic below then you have some screws loose. Ultimately PRC did what US failed, fraction of the cost, and fraction of the lives, while adding 12x Afghan GDP per capita. Thinking that's 1000s worse and larger is delulu American math. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GBEy7HyaUAA3V7c.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GBEy7HyaUAA3V7c.jpg Let's just say if to Obama who got Nobel Peace prize trying to bring peace in the middle east, then Xi and Chen deserves 10.
TeMPOraL 2y ago
> but surveys indicated that an overwhelming majority of residents of Gaza supported Hamas even after the mass murder and rape of October 7. I'm not sure what result you expected. True or not, claims of atrocities committed by your government are always uncertain in practice - people will argue whichever way depending on their goals and beliefs (like we're doing here just now), so even if you believe them, unless you've actually seen them first-hand, they're always somewhat abstract considerations. Meanwhile, the fundamental reality for people in Gaza is that they're being bombed left and right by some outsiders. So when more outsiders come asking them whether they still like their government - government who, other than committing atrocities in what they sell as defensive war, are also responsible for keeping food, water and power flowing while bombs dropped by outsiders keep raining down your streets, does anyone expect majority to say "no, we don't like our government - please keep bombing us until we find a better one"? I bet if you polled the population of Iraq of Afghanistan in the middle of US invasions of either, you'd get similar results supporting the evil government too. Dropping ordnance on people has a way of skewing their responses in political polls away from what you'd expect in a stable democracy.

jijji 2y ago

I think the difference in your comment is that China is doing this to their own citizens. Israel is oppressing their enemy, who have voted for Hamas to be the leader of their government, which stated intent is to destroy Israel... Big difference.

throwaway2037 2y ago
> voted for Hamas I needed to remind myself of how many times they did that (once). It is incredible that Palestine hasn't had an election since 2006. Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_e...
- disgruntledphd2 2y ago
  Yup, and as soon as Hamas were elected, the liberal world refused to deal with them. Never mind how convenient Hamas have been for Likud over the past few decades. It looks incredibly hypocritical to much of the world, and I can see why.
VagabundoP 2y ago
How many people alive in Gaza today voted for Hamas? What an incredibly awful comment to make after so many kids have gotten blown to bits by Israel as some sort of justification. Same sorts of stuff were said about Irish people during the Troubles btw.