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Oh goodness, slow it down a bit. The parent isn't casting blame on immigrants whatsoever. They're saying the data might unfairly paint an outlook because it is

Oh goodness, slow it down a bit. The parent isn't casting blame on immigrants whatsoever. They're saying the data might unfairly paint an outlook because it isn't capturing the rich story. If anything, I think the parent is being super delicate in handling this subject and is being respectful and tolerant.

cf100clunk 2y ago
Indeed, that's why I hoped a rewording or rethink would be in order. In my travels, I have encountered high English literacy throughout the world, and would assume that such folks emmigrating to the U.S. would not suddenly be disregarded in research.
- Dalewyn 2y ago
  Non-native speakers can sometimes speak better English than native speakers, but on average that is generally not the case. It's also worth pointing out that "reading" here seemingly does involve English specifically and not English and Spanish or whatever other language(s) overall. A massive influx of immigrants who likely don't speak English natively, regardless their legality, is inevitably going to cause a drop in English literacy rates unless it's controlled for and I think it's a question worth asking because the methodology isn't immediately obvious.
  - mixmastamyk 2y ago
    Kids, recently from Latin America outnumber well-educated Scandinavians around ~100x here in Southern California, maybe more. This subthread is rather silly.
sitkack 2y ago
> One factor behind decreasing US literacy rates and reading performance is the uptick of immigrants who don't speak English well. There is no may in that statement. There is no citation of anything. We are not talking about literacy rates, the podcast is about how reading is being taught in schools. GP is poisoning the discussion using immigrants as a cudgel, there is nothing delicate here. What does immigration have to do with the science of teaching reading?
- echelon 2y ago
  > What does immigration have to do with the science of teaching reading? ESL requires a vastly different treatment. Different educators, different materials. You have to adapt to the students' needs.
  - sitkack 2y ago
    Adaptation doesn't need "vastly" "different" (educators and materials). The adaptation to students needs is built into the science, that is how science works.
    - echelon 2y ago
      It requires special training that would be difficult and nonsensical to employ everywhere. An urban school will have different needs than a rural one. San Diego has different needs than Juneau.

cf100clunk 2y ago

Indeed, that's why I hoped a rewording or rethink would be in order. In my travels, I have encountered high English literacy throughout the world, and would assume that such folks emmigrating to the U.S. would not suddenly be disregarded in research.

Dalewyn 2y ago
Non-native speakers can sometimes speak better English than native speakers, but on average that is generally not the case. It's also worth pointing out that "reading" here seemingly does involve English specifically and not English and Spanish or whatever other language(s) overall. A massive influx of immigrants who likely don't speak English natively, regardless their legality, is inevitably going to cause a drop in English literacy rates unless it's controlled for and I think it's a question worth asking because the methodology isn't immediately obvious.
- mixmastamyk 2y ago
  Kids, recently from Latin America outnumber well-educated Scandinavians around ~100x here in Southern California, maybe more. This subthread is rather silly.

sitkack 2y ago

> One factor behind decreasing US literacy rates and reading performance is the uptick of immigrants who don't speak English well. There is no may in that statement. There is no citation of anything. We are not talking about literacy rates, the podcast is about how reading is being taught in schools. GP is poisoning the discussion using immigrants as a cudgel, there is nothing delicate here. What does immigration have to do with the science of teaching reading?

echelon 2y ago
> What does immigration have to do with the science of teaching reading? ESL requires a vastly different treatment. Different educators, different materials. You have to adapt to the students' needs.
- sitkack 2y ago
  Adaptation doesn't need "vastly" "different" (educators and materials). The adaptation to students needs is built into the science, that is how science works.
  - echelon 2y ago
    It requires special training that would be difficult and nonsensical to employ everywhere. An urban school will have different needs than a rural one. San Diego has different needs than Juneau.