4 ms·

I think OpenAI is in a really weak position here. There are essentially two positions you can be in: You can be the agile new startup that can break the rules a

I think OpenAI is in a really weak position here. There are essentially two positions you can be in: You can be the agile new startup that can break the rules and move fast. That's what OpenAI used to be. Or you can be the big incumbent who is going to use your enormous resources to crush your opposition. That's Google & Microsoft here. For Microsoft to say "We're going to tie you up in lawsuits about the way you trained this model" would be perfectly expected and they can use that strategy because at any given time they have 1,000 lawyers and lobbyists hanging around waiting to do exactly that. But OpenAI can't do that. They don't have Google or Microsoft's legal teams or lobbyists or distribution channels. SO whilst it's funny that OpenAI are kind of trying to go down this road, this isn't actually a strategy that is going to work for them, they're still a minnow and they're going to get distracted and slowed down by this.

htrp 2y ago
But microsoft is one of their backers?
golly_ned 2y ago
> they're still a minnow 3K+ employees, $3B+ revenue, ... sure, not BigTech but hardly a minnow. A company that big can chew gum and walk at the same time.
- lou1306 2y ago
  They're trying to bark up a tree that might happen to be backed by the People's Republic of China. That's not their league, and even Microsoft would think twice before getting into that kind of kerfuffle.
  - dluan 2y ago
    I think commenters don't know about Bill Gates personally wining and dining Hu Jintao in Medina 20 years ago.
- dauhak 2y ago
  They're also still deep in their loss-making phase, the whole "incumbent squashing upstarts" stance is a lot easier to pull off when you're settled and printing money
- __loam 2y ago
  $7-8b in costs so they're losing $5b
  - Pedro_Ribeiro 2y ago
    Does that include R&D? If running ChatGPT costs $1B/y and they make $3B/y on it, tacking on the cost of R&D on top doesn't seem very fair.
    - __loam 2y ago
      Afaik it includes inference which they seem to be offering at a loss.
    - amoshebb 2y ago
      why not? if their product is “SOTA LLM” then they can’t just lay off r&d and coast. Years from now nobody is going to be paying for “that authentic gpt4 sound”. LLMs aren’t guitars.
jhanschoo 2y ago
> For Microsoft to say "We're going to tie you up in lawsuits about the way you trained this model" would be perfectly expected and they can use that strategy because at any given time they have 1,000 lawyers and lobbyists hanging around waiting to do exactly that. But OpenAI can't do that. They don't have Google or Microsoft's legal teams or lobbyists or distribution channels. I think it's also hilarious that suppose they can do that then they will end up suppressing innovation within the US, and eager groups in China would just innovate without having to worry about this hostile landscape.
bagels 2y ago
Anyone who uses DeepSeek commercially is now opening the door to litigation from them as well.

htrp 2y ago

But microsoft is one of their backers?

golly_ned 2y ago

> they're still a minnow 3K+ employees, $3B+ revenue, ... sure, not BigTech but hardly a minnow. A company that big can chew gum and walk at the same time.

lou1306 2y ago
They're trying to bark up a tree that might happen to be backed by the People's Republic of China. That's not their league, and even Microsoft would think twice before getting into that kind of kerfuffle.
- dluan 2y ago
  I think commenters don't know about Bill Gates personally wining and dining Hu Jintao in Medina 20 years ago.
dauhak 2y ago
They're also still deep in their loss-making phase, the whole "incumbent squashing upstarts" stance is a lot easier to pull off when you're settled and printing money
__loam 2y ago
$7-8b in costs so they're losing $5b
- Pedro_Ribeiro 2y ago
  Does that include R&D? If running ChatGPT costs $1B/y and they make $3B/y on it, tacking on the cost of R&D on top doesn't seem very fair.
  - __loam 2y ago
    Afaik it includes inference which they seem to be offering at a loss.
  - amoshebb 2y ago
    why not? if their product is “SOTA LLM” then they can’t just lay off r&d and coast. Years from now nobody is going to be paying for “that authentic gpt4 sound”. LLMs aren’t guitars.

jhanschoo 2y ago

> For Microsoft to say "We're going to tie you up in lawsuits about the way you trained this model" would be perfectly expected and they can use that strategy because at any given time they have 1,000 lawyers and lobbyists hanging around waiting to do exactly that. But OpenAI can't do that. They don't have Google or Microsoft's legal teams or lobbyists or distribution channels. I think it's also hilarious that suppose they can do that then they will end up suppressing innovation within the US, and eager groups in China would just innovate without having to worry about this hostile landscape.

bagels 2y ago

Anyone who uses DeepSeek commercially is now opening the door to litigation from them as well.