5 ms·

We already had deeply insightful discussions on this topic here, but I will repeat for new HN people. Covid-19 tends to cause post-viral complications, which m

We already had deeply insightful discussions on this topic here, but I will repeat for new HN people. Covid-19 tends to cause post-viral complications, which manifest themselves as chronic fatigue, body temperature dysregulation, air hunger / shortness of breath with SpO2 of 99%, various neurological symptoms: pain/tingling/numbing sensations in the extremities, parosmia (a distorted sense of smell), parageusia (a distorted sense of taste), difficulties swallowing, cognitive decline. According to numerous trials and errors by different people, it was collectively concluded that the condition is caused by some kind of metabolic impairment that presumably affects the ability of mitochondria to produce the adequate levels of ATP. As a direct consequence of that insufficiency, the immune system gets activated and starts to attack body's own tissues. When this happens, the blood vessels start to develop micro-clotting, causing blood flow problems that exacerbate metabolic issues even further. Additional tell signs are increased HOMA-IR and/or triglycerides in the blood work, suggesting that cells of the body cannot utilize the nutrient substrates in full. This represents a vicious cycle of a typical post-Covid pathology. The good news is that it can be treated and healed. The bad news is that it may take some time (months, years) and will power, while medical workers around the corner have no clue. The core of therapy consists of a light immunosuppression in conjunction with therapeutical doses of specific vitamins and vitamin-like substances, all being supported with minerals, vitamin-rich diet, good rest, good sleep, mild physical and mental activities every day. For those people who still suffering from it, I am putting a link to a site [0] that aggregates some first-hand evidences and research information. A usual note of caution is that every situation is different and you should consult your doctor. [0] https://hormonesmatter.com/?s=covid https://hormonesmatter.com/?s=covid Edit: "collectively concluded" is used in the sense that post-covid suffers were able to gain observable improvements in their condition being "a collective of people" suffering from post-covid.

throw38489595 2y ago
Some people have high levels of COVID-19 spike protein, long after main infection is gone. There is very easy way to test for it. Some retroviruses like HIV are able to modify DNA, and embed themselves into cells permanently. Perhaps COVID-19 is doing something similar! It would be nice to do DNA scan, for sequences that produce spike proteins, on people with long COVID symptoms!
- garganzol 2y ago
  Yep, something like spike protein that is more persistent than usual may provoke an inadequate immune response in the body, which is known to cause clotting, which is known to cause tissue hypoxia, which, in turn, is known to induce a mitochondrial dysfunction, starting the vicious cycle of pathology. Chicken and Egg dilemma. We have a lot to discover and formalize. I do not say that you are not right, your suggestion is plausible, we have to find out.
  - throw38489595 2y ago
    Sadly long-covid research is very underfunded. Doing a few thousand DNA tests is not that expensive.
    - garganzol 2y ago
      Covid-19 is not a retrovirus. Otherwise, the people would not be able to reliably overcome it again and again. The same applies to post-covid - once you tame it by finding methods of correcting it, it goes away. I agree with you on necessity of further researches, but they require not only money, but also plenty of time, decades perhaps.
      - throw38489595 2y ago
        > reliably overcome it again and again I would disagree with that. We are only a few years in, many people did not recover yet. And taking severe medication is not exactly "correction". There is a research that suggest some unusual COVID-19 variants are able to penetrate cell nucleus. That is why we need DNA sequencing studies! And not just on patients, but their microbiome as well! And I do not think it will take decades, but couple of years maybe months!
- treyd 2y ago
  Coronaviruses are RNA based and do not carry the reverse-transcriptase proteins (as retroviruses like HIV do) which would be necessary to embed genetic material in host cells' DNA. They directly cause production of the proteins to copy their RNA into new virus capsids.
nradov 2y ago
There has been no such collective conclusion. It could be correct and there are several viable hypotheses in there worthy of further research but nothing that meets the standards of evidence-based medicine.
- garganzol 2y ago
  Survival comes first, while evidence-based, official, one-size-fits-all approvals do not come into existence until a large enough statistical samples are collected. Chicken and egg dilemma of its own. P.S. People are preparing for WW III with a far greater enthusiasm now, imho. Which is sad.
Winsaucerer 2y ago
This might be an ignorant question, but are these therapies likely to help chronic fatigue that predates Covid-19?
- 20k 2y ago
  Long covid, and CFS, are almost certainly the same disease. The person you're replying to is massively overselling the efficacy of treatment though, most people with this kind of fatigue tend to improve to a lower level of functioning than before their fatigue. Nobody has much idea of what the underlying disease is, and there's no evidence that you can cure it with any treatment
- garganzol 2y ago
  If you talk about ME/CFS, then it is known to be helpful in some specific cases, but not universally. People with ME/CFS tend to be driven by autoimmunity as a primal factor of the disease. There is a clear problem of diagnosis and intersection of the symptoms. What we call ME/CFS today may be several distinct diseases with overlapping symptoms. To give you a direct answer: it helps with chronic fatigue, but only if one of the causes of the illness has a metabolic impairment component in it. Otherwise, no improvements are observed.
ActionHank 2y ago
Not a doctor. I've struggled with fatigue, memory issues, and brain fog since having covid. Biggest game changer for me has been supplementing NMN in the morning, NAD in the morning and afternoon. Both work to support ATP levels. With this I've been able to get back to gym in the morning and still work through the day with no sleepiness.
- y-c-o-m-b 2y ago
  I've read that certain people can't convert NMN to NAD very well and the accumulation of NMN can actually result in serious neurological issues. Seems to be working fine for you, but I would caution people here to do their research before using any supplements. Some of them can be very harmful, especially in early stages where they haven't been properly studied.
  - ActionHank 2y ago
    Thanks, I didn’t realize this was possible. Will take a look into it.
laweijfmvo 2y ago
I’m going to ask, not because I have an agenda but because I’m genuinely ignorant but curious: I see a lot of people mentioning things like mitochondria and spike proteins; can any of this be caused by the virus OR the vaccine? or just the whole virus? Thanks!
- garganzol 2y ago
  Any virus and any vaccine can extremely rarely cause a post-viral malaise with similar symptoms. But Covid-19 (as a virus) stands out in terms of frequency of these occurrences moving the needle from "extremely rarely (~never)" to "occasionally (~it happens with my friends and family)". In terms of outcomes and probabilities, having a vaccine is 10000x better than facing a virus directly. Note that in some rare cases, the burden of certain chronical health conditions may overweight the benefits of a vaccine, so it is always better to consult to a doctor who knows you well. Personal anecdotes: I do not know anyone who developed a post-covid condition after being vaccinated, but I know plenty of people who developed a post-covid after covid. I knew people who died from covid not being vaccinated.
  - fragmede 2y ago
    There is a tiny handful of people that developed adverse reactions to just the vaccine and it's dishonest to pretend those cases didn't happen just because dumbfucks are going to hear that story and use that as an excuse to not get the vaccine
    - margalabargala 2y ago
      The question here is specifically about chronic, long-term, Long-Covid-like adverse reactions. The vaccine certainly has occasionally caused immediate, acute issues with people, which is why you aren't supposed to leave the administration site for 15 minutes after you get it. But there are not chronic adverse reactions to the vaccines.
      - fragmede 2y ago
tootie 2y ago
I've read about long COVID and the hallmarks but it seems like Dianna is experiencing something far worse than average. Chronic fatigue is one thing but unable to stand for two years is horrendous. Are there any other recorded cases this severe?
- garganzol 2y ago
  I am not aware about anyone being hit harder than Dianna by post-covid. Her case is extreme. While she is gaining her power back, there is still a considerable probability of acquiring dementia for her, she is in the grey zone now. And note, we read only what meets the eye. Below that line, there were extreme panic attacks (crashes) with a sense of imminent death. I think that in many cases, the death by itself is more peaceful than 100x repetitions of the associated experiences. Panic attacks are usually treated as a psychological phenomenon, but in case of post-covid they have metabolic nature. Tiny parts of body tissues literally die out of energy starvation. It applies to energy-hungry organs first, brain, nervous system, heart, liver, muscles. The heavy cases of post covid is like being a zombie who is still alive, but with tissue hypoxia and consequential tiny necrotic spots hidden inside under a healthy rosy skin.
  - badc0ffee 2y ago
    Is any of that last paragraph actually real? Are these tiny dead parts of the body so tiny that we can't actually observe them or something?
    - garganzol 2y ago
      Take a look at Fig. 1 here [0]. That image was taken using muscle biopsy from someone suffering from a metabolic condition. We can clearly see and observe affected spots in tissues using direct material extraction (biopsy). However, not all parts of the body are easily reachable using that method without causing more harm to a living organism. The effect is also observable using CT scanning (way less conclusive). So the last paragraph is quite real, unfortunately. I presume that a tiny part of the brain/nervous system dies when you have a metabolic panic attack, because there is a pronounced cognitive decline after each such attack. [0] https://www.elsevier.es/en-revista-medicina-clinica-english-edition--462-articulo-kidney-involvement-in-melas-syndrome-S238702061730253X?covid=Dr56DrLjUdaMjzAgze452SzSInMN&rfr=truhgiz&y=kEzTXsahn8atJufRpNPuIGh67s1 https://www.elsevier.es/en-revista-medicina-clinica-english-...
pkaye 2y ago
> ...the condition is caused by some kind of metabolic impairment that presumably affects the ability of mitochondria to produce the adequate levels of ATP. As a direct consequence of that insufficiency, the immune system gets activated and starts to attack body's own tissues. Why would the metabolic impairment cause the immune system to get activated? Also do tests show which immune cells get activated? Are there existing medications that can moderate those immune cells that might work?

throw38489595 2y ago

Some people have high levels of COVID-19 spike protein, long after main infection is gone. There is very easy way to test for it. Some retroviruses like HIV are able to modify DNA, and embed themselves into cells permanently. Perhaps COVID-19 is doing something similar! It would be nice to do DNA scan, for sequences that produce spike proteins, on people with long COVID symptoms!

garganzol 2y ago
Yep, something like spike protein that is more persistent than usual may provoke an inadequate immune response in the body, which is known to cause clotting, which is known to cause tissue hypoxia, which, in turn, is known to induce a mitochondrial dysfunction, starting the vicious cycle of pathology. Chicken and Egg dilemma. We have a lot to discover and formalize. I do not say that you are not right, your suggestion is plausible, we have to find out.
- throw38489595 2y ago
  Sadly long-covid research is very underfunded. Doing a few thousand DNA tests is not that expensive.
  - garganzol 2y ago
    Covid-19 is not a retrovirus. Otherwise, the people would not be able to reliably overcome it again and again. The same applies to post-covid - once you tame it by finding methods of correcting it, it goes away. I agree with you on necessity of further researches, but they require not only money, but also plenty of time, decades perhaps.
    - throw38489595 2y ago
      > reliably overcome it again and again I would disagree with that. We are only a few years in, many people did not recover yet. And taking severe medication is not exactly "correction". There is a research that suggest some unusual COVID-19 variants are able to penetrate cell nucleus. That is why we need DNA sequencing studies! And not just on patients, but their microbiome as well! And I do not think it will take decades, but couple of years maybe months!
treyd 2y ago
Coronaviruses are RNA based and do not carry the reverse-transcriptase proteins (as retroviruses like HIV do) which would be necessary to embed genetic material in host cells' DNA. They directly cause production of the proteins to copy their RNA into new virus capsids.

nradov 2y ago

There has been no such collective conclusion. It could be correct and there are several viable hypotheses in there worthy of further research but nothing that meets the standards of evidence-based medicine.

garganzol 2y ago
Survival comes first, while evidence-based, official, one-size-fits-all approvals do not come into existence until a large enough statistical samples are collected. Chicken and egg dilemma of its own. P.S. People are preparing for WW III with a far greater enthusiasm now, imho. Which is sad.

Winsaucerer 2y ago

This might be an ignorant question, but are these therapies likely to help chronic fatigue that predates Covid-19?

20k 2y ago
Long covid, and CFS, are almost certainly the same disease. The person you're replying to is massively overselling the efficacy of treatment though, most people with this kind of fatigue tend to improve to a lower level of functioning than before their fatigue. Nobody has much idea of what the underlying disease is, and there's no evidence that you can cure it with any treatment
garganzol 2y ago
If you talk about ME/CFS, then it is known to be helpful in some specific cases, but not universally. People with ME/CFS tend to be driven by autoimmunity as a primal factor of the disease. There is a clear problem of diagnosis and intersection of the symptoms. What we call ME/CFS today may be several distinct diseases with overlapping symptoms. To give you a direct answer: it helps with chronic fatigue, but only if one of the causes of the illness has a metabolic impairment component in it. Otherwise, no improvements are observed.

ActionHank 2y ago

Not a doctor. I've struggled with fatigue, memory issues, and brain fog since having covid. Biggest game changer for me has been supplementing NMN in the morning, NAD in the morning and afternoon. Both work to support ATP levels. With this I've been able to get back to gym in the morning and still work through the day with no sleepiness.

y-c-o-m-b 2y ago
I've read that certain people can't convert NMN to NAD very well and the accumulation of NMN can actually result in serious neurological issues. Seems to be working fine for you, but I would caution people here to do their research before using any supplements. Some of them can be very harmful, especially in early stages where they haven't been properly studied.
- ActionHank 2y ago
  Thanks, I didn’t realize this was possible. Will take a look into it.

laweijfmvo 2y ago

I’m going to ask, not because I have an agenda but because I’m genuinely ignorant but curious: I see a lot of people mentioning things like mitochondria and spike proteins; can any of this be caused by the virus OR the vaccine? or just the whole virus? Thanks!

garganzol 2y ago
Any virus and any vaccine can extremely rarely cause a post-viral malaise with similar symptoms. But Covid-19 (as a virus) stands out in terms of frequency of these occurrences moving the needle from "extremely rarely (~never)" to "occasionally (~it happens with my friends and family)". In terms of outcomes and probabilities, having a vaccine is 10000x better than facing a virus directly. Note that in some rare cases, the burden of certain chronical health conditions may overweight the benefits of a vaccine, so it is always better to consult to a doctor who knows you well. Personal anecdotes: I do not know anyone who developed a post-covid condition after being vaccinated, but I know plenty of people who developed a post-covid after covid. I knew people who died from covid not being vaccinated.
- fragmede 2y ago
  There is a tiny handful of people that developed adverse reactions to just the vaccine and it's dishonest to pretend those cases didn't happen just because dumbfucks are going to hear that story and use that as an excuse to not get the vaccine
  - margalabargala 2y ago
    The question here is specifically about chronic, long-term, Long-Covid-like adverse reactions. The vaccine certainly has occasionally caused immediate, acute issues with people, which is why you aren't supposed to leave the administration site for 15 minutes after you get it. But there are not chronic adverse reactions to the vaccines.
    - fragmede 2y ago

tootie 2y ago

I've read about long COVID and the hallmarks but it seems like Dianna is experiencing something far worse than average. Chronic fatigue is one thing but unable to stand for two years is horrendous. Are there any other recorded cases this severe?

garganzol 2y ago
I am not aware about anyone being hit harder than Dianna by post-covid. Her case is extreme. While she is gaining her power back, there is still a considerable probability of acquiring dementia for her, she is in the grey zone now. And note, we read only what meets the eye. Below that line, there were extreme panic attacks (crashes) with a sense of imminent death. I think that in many cases, the death by itself is more peaceful than 100x repetitions of the associated experiences. Panic attacks are usually treated as a psychological phenomenon, but in case of post-covid they have metabolic nature. Tiny parts of body tissues literally die out of energy starvation. It applies to energy-hungry organs first, brain, nervous system, heart, liver, muscles. The heavy cases of post covid is like being a zombie who is still alive, but with tissue hypoxia and consequential tiny necrotic spots hidden inside under a healthy rosy skin.
- badc0ffee 2y ago
  Is any of that last paragraph actually real? Are these tiny dead parts of the body so tiny that we can't actually observe them or something?
  - garganzol 2y ago
    Take a look at Fig. 1 here [0]. That image was taken using muscle biopsy from someone suffering from a metabolic condition. We can clearly see and observe affected spots in tissues using direct material extraction (biopsy). However, not all parts of the body are easily reachable using that method without causing more harm to a living organism. The effect is also observable using CT scanning (way less conclusive). So the last paragraph is quite real, unfortunately. I presume that a tiny part of the brain/nervous system dies when you have a metabolic panic attack, because there is a pronounced cognitive decline after each such attack. [0] https://www.elsevier.es/en-revista-medicina-clinica-english-edition--462-articulo-kidney-involvement-in-melas-syndrome-S238702061730253X?covid=Dr56DrLjUdaMjzAgze452SzSInMN&rfr=truhgiz&y=kEzTXsahn8atJufRpNPuIGh67s1 https://www.elsevier.es/en-revista-medicina-clinica-english-...

pkaye 2y ago

> ...the condition is caused by some kind of metabolic impairment that presumably affects the ability of mitochondria to produce the adequate levels of ATP. As a direct consequence of that insufficiency, the immune system gets activated and starts to attack body's own tissues. Why would the metabolic impairment cause the immune system to get activated? Also do tests show which immune cells get activated? Are there existing medications that can moderate those immune cells that might work?