4 ms·

Ends up…i think it’s just happened. Been on this path for a while but the simple fact its treaties mean nothing totally trashes any reputation that was left, an

by verelo 2y ago

Ends up…i think it’s just happened. Been on this path for a while but the simple fact its treaties mean nothing totally trashes any reputation that was left, and it’s clear it’s run by the ultra wealthy. The people are just bystanders.

hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
> and it’s clear it’s run by the ultra wealthy. The people are just bystanders. The first part is true, the second is not. Yes, it's run by the ultra wealthy. But the people wanted this. The election wasn't in debate, and this wasn't a case of a popular vote/electoral college split. Also, for all of Trump's faults, hidden agendas really aren't one of them. People know exactly who he is, he said pretty much exactly what he would do, and a majority voted for this. I think that's why so many "on the left" are resigned. Y'all voted for this shit, so knock yourself out. We may be looking at some massive cases of "But I never thought the leopard would eat MY face!" in the future, but at this point IDGAF, people voted for this.
- spencerflem 2y ago
  I think the left are resigned because the reason people were so fine with a "shake it up" Trump presidency is we've been run by billionaires over citizens for thirty+ years already, regardless of the party in power. The Dems are part of the path that lead us to this moment and aren't doing much of anything to reverse things. To me, it felt at the time like I was either making my last fair vote now, or they kick the can another 4 years with a do-nothing presidency where inequality keeps getting worse, and we lose to fascists next time. There isn't a real opposition big enough and popular enough to oppose this , and tbh I doubt one can be built in time
  - maeil 2y ago
    You're talking about them as separate groups, but it's likely that the majority of Americans who consider themselves part of "the left" have been voting for these piss-poor Dem candidates that have indeed willfully have led to this, for at least the last 3+ elections. If no one considering themselves part of "the left" would've gone out and voted for HRC and the dems got sent home with 40% of the vote back then, the path may have changed. They voted for her, and for Biden, meaning the path never changed. There were zero punishments for the DNC's despicable behaviour. I have a lot of sympathy for those who did the opposite and did not vote for these candidates. You did the right thing.
    - spencerflem 2y ago
      i'm not convinced that the Dems are actually doing everything they can to win elections. my guess is, unforntunately, that we'd be doomed either way
      - maeil 2y ago
        Oh you're 100% right! All evidence points toward them not doing so! My (potentially hot) take is that if they'd gottten spanked with 40% the first time around, or Biden had lost, there'd have been much more external pressure for meaningful change to start trying to win elections.
- bizzyb 2y ago
  Doesn't necessarily change your overall point but Trump won a plurality of the vote, not a majority.
- sundaeofshock 2y ago
  The people did not want this. A majority of voters voted for not Trump. He also spent the bulk of his campaign — aided by the press — distancing himself from project 2025. I’m on the left and I’m not resigned to this. I still have some fight left in me.
  - DaSHacka 2y ago
    > The people did not want this. A majority of voters voted for not Trump. He won the popular vote though, unless I'm misunderstanding your point. > He also spent the bulk of his campaign — aided by the press — distancing himself from project 2025. What specific media companies did this? I heard nothing but negative things about Trump and constant pointing out ties to project 2025 by all major news networks, cable and textual. Except maybe Fox, but I don't watch it nor know anyone that does. (Well, not that many people I know even watch or read mainstream news in the first place anymore...)
    - johnny22 2y ago
      > He won the popular vote though, unless I'm misunderstanding your point. I think the distinction here is that only about 1/2 the population even voted.
      - seanmcdirmid 2y ago
        No, the distinction is that 1.5% more voters chose Trump than chose Harris, but that still didn’t push Trump over 50% of the vote, so it’s correct to say that most voters didn’t vote for Trump, but to win the popular vote he only needed the most votes.
        rayiner 2y ago
        This whole thing verges on “silent majority” thinking. The people who don’t vote have no bearing in this calculation. If they cared either way, they would have voted. It’s particularly suspect with Trump, because of his strength among infrequent voters. https://abcnews.go.com/538/vote-back-trump/story?id=109090626 https://abcnews.go.com/538/vote-back-trump/story?id=10909062... “But among respondents who were old enough to vote but voted in none of those three elections, Trump crushed Biden 44 percent to 26 percent.”
- malicka 2y ago
  > The first part is true, the second is not People wanted this because news and social media have told them to want – both which are functionally mouth-pieces of the ultra-wealthy. News has been consolidating into fewer hands for decades; it’s only getting worse, and their owners more emboldened. The popular social media sites, when not owned and manipulated directly by their owning oligarchs, are subject to a massive amount of astroturfing bankrolled by other ultra-wealthy folks. The wealthy chose Trump, and so it is. We aren’t completely bystanders, but the cards are unimaginably stacked against us. We need to break up massive media companies, get rid of manipulative algorithms, and fight tooth and nail to get money out of politics – as much as we can.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - 1659447091 2y ago
    > People wanted this because news and social media have told them to want ... > are subject to a massive amount of astroturfing ... The wealthy chose Trump, and so it is People refuse to believe this can happen to them. Just as people do not believe they can be influenced by TikTok algos or advertising. They would know if it were happening to them; doesn't matter if they are left right east west up down or sideways, they are special snowflakes and it's those "others" that are the sheep that fall for it. I did a stint in door-to-door sales (during a period of burn-out); as much as I didn't want to believe the shifty sales consultant that would come in and give sales training clinics, it's the people that absolutely know for sure they are not buying that were the ones I liked best--they won't be "tricked" or persuaded. No tricks needed, my personal ethics would not allow it even though there were "tips & suggestions" other sales people gave out; those that claim to be unsellable were almost always the sales I got the most commission from.
    - nickpp 2y ago
      The exact same argument, that Trump voters were “influenced” by algos, can be made that anti-Trump voters were influenced by mainstream media or whatever. So you either believe that people have agency and actually decide for themselves, or that they are puppets and democracy is a sham.
rayiner 2y ago
Trump literally got up on stage with Elon promising to do what he’s doing. Elon spent the entire last week before the election in Pennsylvania, a major swing state, telling people what the administration was to do. Trump also got up on stage with many of his key appointees, who were outspoken about what they were going to do. Now, they’re all doing those things. Like, you can say his policies are bad and you don’t like them for whatever reason. But the “false consciousness” argument applies to Trump the least of any president in my lifetime. He won spending less money both times, with the uniform hostility of big, centralized media. Trump’s big thing this campaign was in person rallies and podcasts. I don’t watch mainstream media. I listen to some podcasts twice a week driving to work, and follow some people on X. Nothing Trump has done came as any surprise at all to me.
- red-iron-pine 2y ago
  > I don’t watch mainstream media. I listen to some podcasts twice a week driving to work, and follow some people on X. Nothing Trump has done came as any surprise at all to me. honestly its shocking that any of this is a surprise. dude was President once, and was consistently making attempts at this before, only to be hamstrung by Congress. his entire 2nd run was pretty blunt about ties to Project 2025 and their aims. Even Drudge and Fox News covered this stuff.
  - rayiner 2y ago
    Framing this as “Project 2025” makes it seem like he distanced himself from these policies. The policies in his EOs are from his own platform: https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/2024-republican-party-platform https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/2024-republican-pa.... If you listened to a couple of his long form podcasts and rallies, these things were all in there. Obviously there’s a lot of overlap between what Trump campaigned on and Project 2025. But Trump hasn’t issued any EOs banning abortion or similar issues that were in Project 2025 but not his own platform.
- ceejayoz 2y ago
  Oh, come on. They lied through their teeth. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/watch-i-have-nothing-to-do-with-project-2025-trump-says https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/watch-i-have-nothing-t... > Former President Donald Trump denied any connection to Project 2025, the handbook for a new conservative government written by the Heritage Foundation and several right-wing think tanks, in his Sept. 10 debate with Vice President Kamala Harris. > “I have nothing to do with Project 2025,” Trump said in the ABC News Presidential Debate. “I haven’t read it. I don’t want to read it purposely. I’m not going to read it.” Then they hired/appointed its people and implemented their policies.

by verelo 2y ago

hn_throwaway_99 2y ago

> and it’s clear it’s run by the ultra wealthy. The people are just bystanders. The first part is true, the second is not. Yes, it's run by the ultra wealthy. But the people wanted this. The election wasn't in debate, and this wasn't a case of a popular vote/electoral college split. Also, for all of Trump's faults, hidden agendas really aren't one of them. People know exactly who he is, he said pretty much exactly what he would do, and a majority voted for this. I think that's why so many "on the left" are resigned. Y'all voted for this shit, so knock yourself out. We may be looking at some massive cases of "But I never thought the leopard would eat MY face!" in the future, but at this point IDGAF, people voted for this.

spencerflem 2y ago
I think the left are resigned because the reason people were so fine with a "shake it up" Trump presidency is we've been run by billionaires over citizens for thirty+ years already, regardless of the party in power. The Dems are part of the path that lead us to this moment and aren't doing much of anything to reverse things. To me, it felt at the time like I was either making my last fair vote now, or they kick the can another 4 years with a do-nothing presidency where inequality keeps getting worse, and we lose to fascists next time. There isn't a real opposition big enough and popular enough to oppose this , and tbh I doubt one can be built in time
- maeil 2y ago
  You're talking about them as separate groups, but it's likely that the majority of Americans who consider themselves part of "the left" have been voting for these piss-poor Dem candidates that have indeed willfully have led to this, for at least the last 3+ elections. If no one considering themselves part of "the left" would've gone out and voted for HRC and the dems got sent home with 40% of the vote back then, the path may have changed. They voted for her, and for Biden, meaning the path never changed. There were zero punishments for the DNC's despicable behaviour. I have a lot of sympathy for those who did the opposite and did not vote for these candidates. You did the right thing.
  - spencerflem 2y ago
    i'm not convinced that the Dems are actually doing everything they can to win elections. my guess is, unforntunately, that we'd be doomed either way
    - maeil 2y ago
      Oh you're 100% right! All evidence points toward them not doing so! My (potentially hot) take is that if they'd gottten spanked with 40% the first time around, or Biden had lost, there'd have been much more external pressure for meaningful change to start trying to win elections.
bizzyb 2y ago
Doesn't necessarily change your overall point but Trump won a plurality of the vote, not a majority.
sundaeofshock 2y ago
The people did not want this. A majority of voters voted for not Trump. He also spent the bulk of his campaign — aided by the press — distancing himself from project 2025. I’m on the left and I’m not resigned to this. I still have some fight left in me.
- DaSHacka 2y ago
  > The people did not want this. A majority of voters voted for not Trump. He won the popular vote though, unless I'm misunderstanding your point. > He also spent the bulk of his campaign — aided by the press — distancing himself from project 2025. What specific media companies did this? I heard nothing but negative things about Trump and constant pointing out ties to project 2025 by all major news networks, cable and textual. Except maybe Fox, but I don't watch it nor know anyone that does. (Well, not that many people I know even watch or read mainstream news in the first place anymore...)
  - johnny22 2y ago
    > He won the popular vote though, unless I'm misunderstanding your point. I think the distinction here is that only about 1/2 the population even voted.
    - seanmcdirmid 2y ago
      No, the distinction is that 1.5% more voters chose Trump than chose Harris, but that still didn’t push Trump over 50% of the vote, so it’s correct to say that most voters didn’t vote for Trump, but to win the popular vote he only needed the most votes.
      - rayiner 2y ago
        This whole thing verges on “silent majority” thinking. The people who don’t vote have no bearing in this calculation. If they cared either way, they would have voted. It’s particularly suspect with Trump, because of his strength among infrequent voters. https://abcnews.go.com/538/vote-back-trump/story?id=109090626 https://abcnews.go.com/538/vote-back-trump/story?id=10909062... “But among respondents who were old enough to vote but voted in none of those three elections, Trump crushed Biden 44 percent to 26 percent.”
malicka 2y ago
> The first part is true, the second is not People wanted this because news and social media have told them to want – both which are functionally mouth-pieces of the ultra-wealthy. News has been consolidating into fewer hands for decades; it’s only getting worse, and their owners more emboldened. The popular social media sites, when not owned and manipulated directly by their owning oligarchs, are subject to a massive amount of astroturfing bankrolled by other ultra-wealthy folks. The wealthy chose Trump, and so it is. We aren’t completely bystanders, but the cards are unimaginably stacked against us. We need to break up massive media companies, get rid of manipulative algorithms, and fight tooth and nail to get money out of politics – as much as we can.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- 1659447091 2y ago
  > People wanted this because news and social media have told them to want ... > are subject to a massive amount of astroturfing ... The wealthy chose Trump, and so it is People refuse to believe this can happen to them. Just as people do not believe they can be influenced by TikTok algos or advertising. They would know if it were happening to them; doesn't matter if they are left right east west up down or sideways, they are special snowflakes and it's those "others" that are the sheep that fall for it. I did a stint in door-to-door sales (during a period of burn-out); as much as I didn't want to believe the shifty sales consultant that would come in and give sales training clinics, it's the people that absolutely know for sure they are not buying that were the ones I liked best--they won't be "tricked" or persuaded. No tricks needed, my personal ethics would not allow it even though there were "tips & suggestions" other sales people gave out; those that claim to be unsellable were almost always the sales I got the most commission from.
  - nickpp 2y ago
    The exact same argument, that Trump voters were “influenced” by algos, can be made that anti-Trump voters were influenced by mainstream media or whatever. So you either believe that people have agency and actually decide for themselves, or that they are puppets and democracy is a sham.

rayiner 2y ago

Trump literally got up on stage with Elon promising to do what he’s doing. Elon spent the entire last week before the election in Pennsylvania, a major swing state, telling people what the administration was to do. Trump also got up on stage with many of his key appointees, who were outspoken about what they were going to do. Now, they’re all doing those things. Like, you can say his policies are bad and you don’t like them for whatever reason. But the “false consciousness” argument applies to Trump the least of any president in my lifetime. He won spending less money both times, with the uniform hostility of big, centralized media. Trump’s big thing this campaign was in person rallies and podcasts. I don’t watch mainstream media. I listen to some podcasts twice a week driving to work, and follow some people on X. Nothing Trump has done came as any surprise at all to me.

red-iron-pine 2y ago
> I don’t watch mainstream media. I listen to some podcasts twice a week driving to work, and follow some people on X. Nothing Trump has done came as any surprise at all to me. honestly its shocking that any of this is a surprise. dude was President once, and was consistently making attempts at this before, only to be hamstrung by Congress. his entire 2nd run was pretty blunt about ties to Project 2025 and their aims. Even Drudge and Fox News covered this stuff.
- rayiner 2y ago
  Framing this as “Project 2025” makes it seem like he distanced himself from these policies. The policies in his EOs are from his own platform: https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/2024-republican-party-platform https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/2024-republican-pa.... If you listened to a couple of his long form podcasts and rallies, these things were all in there. Obviously there’s a lot of overlap between what Trump campaigned on and Project 2025. But Trump hasn’t issued any EOs banning abortion or similar issues that were in Project 2025 but not his own platform.
ceejayoz 2y ago
Oh, come on. They lied through their teeth. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/watch-i-have-nothing-to-do-with-project-2025-trump-says https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/watch-i-have-nothing-t... > Former President Donald Trump denied any connection to Project 2025, the handbook for a new conservative government written by the Heritage Foundation and several right-wing think tanks, in his Sept. 10 debate with Vice President Kamala Harris. > “I have nothing to do with Project 2025,” Trump said in the ABC News Presidential Debate. “I haven’t read it. I don’t want to read it purposely. I’m not going to read it.” Then they hired/appointed its people and implemented their policies.