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Anyone else think it’s likely America ends up without being a meaningful democracy by the end of this? I am skeptical the stated goal is efficiency it’s loyalty
by andy_ppp 2y ago
Anyone else think it’s likely America ends up without being a meaningful democracy by the end of this? I am skeptical the stated goal is efficiency it’s loyalty to MAGA. Imagine how extreme they will get if you can never vote them out.
- CalRobert 2y agoI very much agree, and it's part of why I live abroad. I don't understand why the people behind January 6 would then go on to allow free and fair elections and politely hand back power when they lose.
- euroderf 2y agoI moved abroad decades ago and have now spent more than half my life out of the US, but it's only nowadays that I thank my lucky stars.
- CalRobert 2y agoFor a long time I eyed the pay and interesting companies in norcal thinking “did I make a mistake?” But now I clutch my EU passport thankfully
- bigstrat2003 2y ago[flagged]
- uoaei 2y agoFaith in the system is no substitute for the actual work of maintenance. Right now there are people in power actively dismantling the system -- faith is not enough.
- theonething 2y agoThank you for a voice of reason.
- fooblaster 2y agoDid you miss the part where the mob that stormed the capital was fully pardoned despite the incredible violence? This is dictator shit. He's telling his supporters violence is okay against his political enemies and he will cover for you.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- hedora 2y agoThere’s also the part where Secret Service agents are going to schools, lying about who they are, and trying to arrest children for making statements critical of Trump: > "We had an incident happen in Chicago on Friday where there were some federal agents that showed up at a school asking to come in to interview an 11-year-old who had posted an anti-Trump video on TikTok. > "They presented their credentials, they said [they were] Department of Homeland Security. The school was confused and said, 'No, you cannot come in.' > "It turned out they were actually from the Secret Service, which does not enforce immigration law, but the school activated its protocol as if it were protecting that student, and said, 'You can't come in because you don't have a signed warrant. Of course, Trump previously threatened to prosecute any state employees that don’t cooperate with such stuff. The school administration took on a lot of personal risk to protect that kid. https://www.npr.org/hereandnow/2025/01/27/immigration-arrests-schools https://www.npr.org/hereandnow/2025/01/27/immigration-arrest...
- CalRobert 2y agoI am reminded of my colleague who grew up in the USSR, and said agents would come to their class and show kids pictures of western cartoon characters (Mickey, etc.) to see who had disloyal parents.
- seattle_spring 2y agoWe're not far from that happening here. There is currently an attempt to discontinue students' ability to check out mobile hotspots because access to the Internet could, "censor kids' exposure to conservative viewpoints." [1] [1] https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2025/01/senator-ted-cruz-is-trying-to-block-wi-fi-hotspots-for-schoolchildren/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2025/01/senator-ted-cruz...
- spencerflem 2y agoI think it is a very reasonable concern. The closest we've gotten was Trump, recorded on call, demanding that a Georgia election official "find" a few thousand more votes, and the attempt to "stop the steal" on Jan 6. In response to that ... the courts have decided that the president has immunity for all acts, the insurrectionists were paroned, and a series of blatantly unconstitutional changes made including an end to birthright citizenship and shutting down all government payments despite being required to disperse them by congress. It seems very, Very possible to me that we will have "elections" soon in the same way Russia has "elections".
- daguava 2y ago[dead]
- imoverclocked 2y agoI would say there is plenty of reason. When we stop living by the laws we put in place, stop pledging allegiance to our country, stop solving problems that the people of the country face while simultaneously start pledging allegiance to a single man [1] who breaks those laws[2] and cares little about the situation of individuals in this country[3], we are definitely on the road to ending our democracy. [1] New whitehouse/government employees are being asked when their moment of “MAGA revelation” occurred. This. is. not. normal. [2] Trump is a convicted felon, adulterer, conman, etc... [3] See his response to many crises in his first term including his initial and continued denial of Covid
- andy_ppp 2y agoThe problem is they believe the other side stole the election, has pizza shop child abuse cults run by Hilary Clinton, that liberals in the government are the “enemy from within” etc. etc. With such beliefs any response becomes not only possible but reasonable.
- sympil 2y agoThere is no reason to think that democracy in America is going to stop. There are lots of reasons to think this is a real possibility. The American republic isn’t going to last forever and right now we are experiencing the greatest threat to our political stability since the Civil War. Texas likes to pass resolutions calling for secession when a Democrat wins the Presidency. We’ll see the call for secession become more common in the coming years and from liberal states.
- therealpygon 2y agoThat is exactly what people who believe Fox News fabrications and Trump lies say; that the “liberal” (read, “independently found to be the least biased comparatively”) media is just fear-mongering for reporting on the crooked behavior everyone knew would happen. Steps that he’s taken have all been outlined in Project 2025, which literally lays out the plan to rig elections moving forward by excluding any dissenting voices from a position of power that might resist such an overtaking of government, followed by wide spread gerrymandering. Then make excuses for why Democrats are being ousted at every level. The fact that people are so closed-minded as to believe anything he’s done is in good faith are astonishingly…gullible. I say this as someone who has voted for Republicans most of my life, until the Tea-party and the Trump-ilk poisoned the party. Worse still are, again, the gullible buying into the myriad of what are clearly, factually, lies. But, I’m sure if we all put our heads in the sand our democracy will totally be fine. At least it isn’t like one of his first actions was to attempt to prevent the exercise of constitutional rights to citizenship or anything, so I’m sure all our rights including those to a free and fair election are safe.
- laidoffamazon 2y agoI think the chance is about 10%. That's too high of a chance, IMHO.
- spencerflem 2y agoGenuinely, who are you expecting to stand up against it? The Democrats in Congress? Massive public demonstration? It feels all but inevitable to me
- hedora 2y agoThe Calexit people are gathering signatures right now: https://www.sos.ca.gov/administration/news-releases-and-advisories/2025-news-releases-and-advisories/Proposed-Initiative-Enters-Circulation-Requires-Future-Vote-on-Whether-California-Should-Become-Independent-Country https://www.sos.ca.gov/administration/news-releases-and-advi...
- spencerflem 2y agoI'm in WA, could you extend it to all of Cascadia? ;) Last time a state tried to leave there were words though. I doubt this will go smoothly
- jslaby 2y agoWA was the only state to decrease in Trump vote margin
- spencerflem 2y agoHappy to be of service
- roland35 2y agoI would not be surprised if this is some Russian psy op honestly. Please stay!
- 2y ago
- verelo 2y agoEnds up…i think it’s just happened. Been on this path for a while but the simple fact its treaties mean nothing totally trashes any reputation that was left, and it’s clear it’s run by the ultra wealthy. The people are just bystanders.
- hn_throwaway_99 2y ago> and it’s clear it’s run by the ultra wealthy. The people are just bystanders. The first part is true, the second is not. Yes, it's run by the ultra wealthy. But the people wanted this. The election wasn't in debate, and this wasn't a case of a popular vote/electoral college split. Also, for all of Trump's faults, hidden agendas really aren't one of them. People know exactly who he is, he said pretty much exactly what he would do, and a majority voted for this. I think that's why so many "on the left" are resigned. Y'all voted for this shit, so knock yourself out. We may be looking at some massive cases of "But I never thought the leopard would eat MY face!" in the future, but at this point IDGAF, people voted for this.
- spencerflem 2y agoI think the left are resigned because the reason people were so fine with a "shake it up" Trump presidency is we've been run by billionaires over citizens for thirty+ years already, regardless of the party in power. The Dems are part of the path that lead us to this moment and aren't doing much of anything to reverse things. To me, it felt at the time like I was either making my last fair vote now, or they kick the can another 4 years with a do-nothing presidency where inequality keeps getting worse, and we lose to fascists next time. There isn't a real opposition big enough and popular enough to oppose this , and tbh I doubt one can be built in time
- maeil 2y agoYou're talking about them as separate groups, but it's likely that the majority of Americans who consider themselves part of "the left" have been voting for these piss-poor Dem candidates that have indeed willfully have led to this, for at least the last 3+ elections. If no one considering themselves part of "the left" would've gone out and voted for HRC and the dems got sent home with 40% of the vote back then, the path may have changed. They voted for her, and for Biden, meaning the path never changed. There were zero punishments for the DNC's despicable behaviour. I have a lot of sympathy for those who did the opposite and did not vote for these candidates. You did the right thing.
- ergonaught 2y agoThere are a number of major systemic risks. As ever, the problem is compounded by the chunk of population who enable it, and the typically larger chunk of population who are unable or unwilling to recognize clear and present danger. Or: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee6-sI9rdtA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee6-sI9rdtA
- thepasswordis 2y ago[flagged]
- gmd63 2y agoNo. The people, over the course of long periods of time, voted for agencies to exist, through laws, that are controlled legally, according to laws that have evolved over time. What is happening now is those agencies are being illegally co-opted by loyalists and sycophants who have shirked their constitutional duties as congressmen. They are ignoring the laws that describe how these agencies should be run, and it doesn't matter because it's a metastatic blob of folks who have forsaken their oath at the behest of a felon who avoided trial for sedition.
- AlexandrB 2y agoClearly the Democrats think American democracy is secure because they insist on running terrible candidates and pursuing unpopular policies. It's funny how the politicians yelling about how Trump 2 is an existential risk seem to be more concerned about their careers than this "threat to democracy". I'm frankly tired of taking this stuff seriously.
- spencerflem 2y agoI'm with you fwiw. Except I think its less that MAGA isn't an exstisential threat to democracy (they are) but that the Democrats are really just that useless.
- dillondoyle 2y agoYes. I sadly agree with obama: we can survive 4 years. I don't know we can survive 8. “I think that four years is OK,” Obama said. “Take on some water, but we can kind of bail fast enough to be OK. Eight years would be a problem. I would be concerned about a sustained period in which some of these norms have broken down and started to corrode.” We're already far beyond some norms breaking down... Sadly I can't find a great source for that quote. just found it on scmp and jp. weird. I swear I have this memory of that being in politico or nytimes at the time. iirc was from an 'otr' towards the end of his term.
- hug 2y agoIt was indeed an off the record chat, made public. https://www.benzinga.com/government/22/10/29111070/obamas-take-on-trumps-presidency-four-years-is-okay-but-eight-years-would-be-a-problem-private-chat https://www.benzinga.com/government/22/10/29111070/obamas-ta...
- bufferoverflow 2y agoHow is president ordering to work from the office or resign - an end to democracy? This narrative is pure bs.
- intermerda 2y agoAre you being intentionally bad faith? Or did you not read the memo?
- bufferoverflow 2y agoGreat rebuttal. You're so convincing.
- verzali 2y agoThere's four more years of this. I no longer think there's a happy ending here, and we're way past the point of being merely concerning.
- rayiner 2y agoThis is a pro-democracy move! Elections being accompanied by a large scale shakeup to help the elected president enact the agenda people voted for is a good thing actually. Ideally, every federal employee would respond to an election by maximally pushing to achieve the president’s agenda, like at a startup. That would be responsive democracy, where voting yields immediate and visible changes. If you mean something other than “democracy” then say it.
- stogot 2y agoIt’s actually a republic
- mckn1ght 2y agoSure, a democratic one. So?
- spencerflem 2y agoI think they mean democracy, as in, if he's willing to disregard laws passed by congress and the constitution, and has been caught on record demanding poll workers to "find" votes, and has disbanded all oversight - why would you expect future elections to be free and fair?
- tmaly 2y agoAlbert Einstein once said “Compound interest is the eighth wonder of the world. He who understands it, earns it; he who doesn't, pays it”