8 ms·

New 100W USB 3.0 Spec Can Charge Laptops

78 points by pwg 14y ago

mootothemax 14y ago
It would be unbelievably cool to be able to walk into an office with a laptop, and only have to roll out a USB cable from the desk in order to charge it. If there was some way of combining this with an ethernet port, all my prayers would be answered!
- dasmoth 14y ago
  It's compatible with normal USB2.0 and 3.0. No reason it couldn't be offering ethernet as well as power. At that point it does indeed sound quite compelling.
- zokier 14y ago
  That is the basic idea behind docking stations
  - mseebach 14y ago
    Yep, and the reason they work so well is that everybody has the exact same model laptop. I couldn't care less what the standard is, as long as it's a standard and everybody uses it. 400-pin docking station connectors are not standard, and pity the fool who tries to change that.
nchlswu 14y ago
USB is slowly approaching "single cable" solution. By adding power, USB3 and Thunderbolt are two differentiated solutions moving towards a similar goal.
- keeperofdakeys 14y ago
  While they are both "single cable" solutions, their differences give them different uses. Currently there are lots of cheap USB gadgets, and you probably have lots of USB cables floating around your house. Thunderbolt uses active cables, which means the cables contain hardware to code the signal specially for that cable. This allows much better guarantees of throughput, while making cables much more expensive. With this in mind, I think we are likely to see thunderbolt used in more 'dedicated' scenarios, like removable harddrives, displays, and printers. Daisy chaining means you don't need many ports either. On the other hand, USB cables are cheap, but have less guarantees on throughput. In fact, since many ports could be on one hub, you can't even use all ports to there maximum potential. USB is likely to stay in its current position for the foreseeable future though.
senthilnayagam 14y ago
I have done research on this topic, it is a standard, not ratisfied yet, and no way your old usb cables can take 100watt power(voltage/amperage), also wall sockets need standards, which is not there yet. there are other working powered USB implementations available http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powered_USB http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powered_USB
- lysol 14y ago
  The example you cited doesn't even use the same connector. Furthermore, the support of Intel and Microsoft is basically a sure-shot that we'll see an implementation. There's skepticism, and then there's just silliness.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
lallysingh 14y ago
20v@5a! Nice! I can't wait to see USB ports instead of the 13.8v ports we currently have in cars. Sadly my 170w laptop still would need a separate adapter.
- morsch 14y ago
  Unless your laptop is using 170W all the time, you could still charge it using just 100W. Even a very high powered laptop is probably using <10W in idle.
  - beagle3 14y ago
    I used to think that too. But I just measured my ExoPC slate (Tablet, Atom N450, Pine Trail chipset); It draws 0.1W while suspended, 9W idling with screen off, 13W idling with screen on, and 18W with screen on and 100% CPU.
- jonknee 14y ago
  A decent number of cars have USB ports (usually for audio purposes but they also supply power). Ford Sync comes to mind here.
- dspillett 14y ago
  Remember that your laptop is unlikely to actually draw 170W at any time unless there is a fault (that it its supply's rated maximum, not what it is expected to draw all the time). Most of the time it'll draw a few 10s of W, maybe stepping up as high as 100W+ when at full tilt (CPU & GPU hammering away, cooling fans on full blast, display at full brightness, all disks spinning & heads flapping, active drives or USB-powered cup warmers in every available port, ...). If you have (or have access to) one of those plug-in power meters give it a try without the battery connected: you might be surprised how little power is being drawn most of the time. A laptop's power system is essentially a UPS: if there is no (or not enough) power coming in from the main source, flip to the battery. This won't be any different for this use: as soon as it wants to draw more than is available it'll see the under-current and switch over. The smoothing capacitors will ensure it can stay alive during the switch-over just as they do when you unplug the charger normally. If it is a little brighter then at times it might be be able to draw as much as it can from the external power and draw the excess from the battery, but I suspect no laptop is currently designed that way (they generally either get more than they need or nothing at all from the external source, so trying to be clever in response to getting half what you need would be over-engineering).
nicholassmith 14y ago
This is awesome, being able to charge everything from a single power plug is a total dream. But it'd mean losing MagSafe and I can't see Apple going down that route.
- tjoff 14y ago
  Just use an adapter, apple customers seems to love those.
  - jonknee 14y ago
    > apple customers seems to love those Er, Apple designers seem to love those.
    - stcredzero 14y ago
      > Er, Apple designers seem to love those. Stockholders should too.
- crazygringo 14y ago
  Is there any reason you couldn't have both? Use MagSafe at home/work because it's a superior solution, but hopefully Apple hooks up one/all of their USB ports as well to power, so you can recharge with a generic USB cable in a pinch.
  - nicholassmith 14y ago
    It's always possible, but I'm not sure would do it. They like their magsafe, they like the form factor, and they're going down the route of sliming it down. If they could pull it off I imagine they would be but thats probably a while off yet.
    - toomuchtodo 14y ago
      Wouldn't they just integrate wireless charging into the battery? To eliminate the need for a port?
dattaway 14y ago
Expect a new class of cheap USB gadgets in the future. USB powered microwave oven. There's a lot of toasty cheese melting power in 20 volts and 5 amps. There's going to be some patents filed...
- sp332 14y ago
  Way ahead of you https://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/41/fundue.shtml https://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/41/fundue.shtml :) (try the buy now button)
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
bryanlarsen 14y ago
picture of the new cable: http://m.hexus.net/tech/news/peripherals/42705-new-usb-standard-will-deliver-100w-power/ http://m.hexus.net/tech/news/peripherals/42705-new-usb-stand...
- joenathan 14y ago
  That is a picture of a standard USB 3.0 A to B cable. Ex. http://www.amazon.com/Micro-Connectors-Superspeed-Cable-Feet/dp/B002UHJ1II http://www.amazon.com/Micro-Connectors-Superspeed-Cable-Feet...
  - ars 14y ago
    No it's not. Look at the plastic "tongue" in the middle of it - it was pierced and they put the power connectors inside it.
    - joenathan 14y ago
      Um, yes it is. How about the fact that that particular image is at least 3 years old? here is an article from nov 2009 http://www.tuexperto.com/2009/11/05/intel-no-desarrollara-el-estandar-usb-3-0-hasta-2011/ http://www.tuexperto.com/2009/11/05/intel-no-desarrollara-el... and many more http://www.tineye.com/search/d582fc65885700337f2c3ade01878bcb23db5241/ http://www.tineye.com/search/d582fc65885700337f2c3ade01878bc...
      - ars 14y ago
        Seems you're right. But that makes me wonder where they are adding the pins, there doesn't seem to be room (unless it's inside the connector, with two rows of pins).
- polshaw 14y ago
  The device end seems really chunky for today's electronics. I can't see that being used to power anything more portable than a laptop (and it's still big for ultraportables) if there is no mini version.
pieter 14y ago
I'd be careful with these; it means you can't plug in an untrusted power supply anymore. Just imagine one of these cables also acting as a USB keyboard, which brings up a new terminal, adds an SSH authorized key and closes the terminal window without you even seeing it.
- jonknee 14y ago
  How often are you currently plugging in untrusted power supplies? ThunderBolt can chain a lot of different device types but I don't think it's a huge attack vector to plug in untrusted monitors.
  - beagle3 14y ago
    > I don't think it's a huge attack vector to plug in untrusted monitors. Yet. Give it a couple of years. The monitors are really smart now - many of them running code and have flash memory. The attack won't be directly by the monitor - the monitor will have been infected by malware earlier ... say, by an infected computer ... Our devices are getting too smart, and our protocols getting too trusty, for our own sake. (Although I'm sure governments and other law abusers like the RIAA are raising a glass to each of these "advancements")
  - cdcarter 14y ago
    Personally, I'm borrowing someones magsafe at least once a week. A majority of students at my college use MBPs, so they are abundant.
- sp332 14y ago
  There's already a hacking platform for that. https://hakshop.myshopify.com/products/usb-rubber-ducky https://hakshop.myshopify.com/products/usb-rubber-ducky Seems like it would be pretty easy to adapt to a USB power supply.
- tomjen3 14y ago
  Since a true machine charger would have its data ports wired to ground, couldn't you make simple adapter that ensured that was the case? Then security wouldn't be an issue?
miahi 14y ago
As the wireless networks are easier to use, technology that was built for data transfer is now used for power. I would call that cable USC (Universal Serial Charger). It looks like a standardization of a power adapter, but I don't think we can call it USB, as the "serial" part will not be really used. Profiles 4 and 5 would need special power sources, so you cannot just plug your laptop in a simple desktop (or another laptop) and get 100W of power, so you'll get a brick adapter with an USB plug instead of a custom plug - like most cellphones. But I would not expect the brick to use the initial USB function (data transfer). This also means that the cheap Chinese USB power bricks will be even more dangerous.
IsTom 14y ago
Is the USB 3.0 still held by Intel?
Scene_Cast2 14y ago
The duplex power is interesting. Let's say you've got a fully-charged phone (or similar). Would you be able to use it as a battery instead of charging it?
j_baker 14y ago
I'm curious if USB could be turning into the next electrical socket. Imagine if everything you plugged into a wall outlet used USB. Not only would it probably be safer, but it would probably mean the end of country-specific electrical adapters. Outlets like this are already becoming popular: http://www.amazon.com/Newer-Technology-Power2U-Outlet-Charging/dp/B0065I114K http://www.amazon.com/Newer-Technology-Power2U-Outlet-Chargi...
- ars 14y ago
  Probably not. The 5v ones can't deliver enough power to do much, and if you have 20v you might as well have 120v - you anyway need to convert the voltage to whatever you use internally, and with 120v the wires are 1/5 the size (thickness).
  - Dylan16807 14y ago
    I find that argument suspect when I look at all the laptops that run on 19 volts. Internal adapters are a lot messier for 120v. Most computing things love the 12 volt range, my screen uses 19 volts, a fancy light bulb is either LED and low voltage or CFL and gets no benefit from 120. Higher voltage is better for distribution and for very high power loads (including heaters). But a lot of things like low voltage.
    - ars 14y ago
      > Internal adapters are a lot messier for 120v. Why do you say that? Look at any USB charging plug - very simple inside. You only need "messy" electronics for high power or high (above 80%) efficiency. Basically you would need 20v -> 5v vs 120v -> 5v - there isn't really a lot of difference. (There is some, but not enough to make changing everything worthwhile.) Also, the double conversion isn't great (you would need a power supply in each plug), assuming typical 80% power supplies you would end up with end to end 64% efficiency.
      - deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
K2h 14y ago
It is very interesting to see the group move to a switchable voltage, expecting to support 5V, 12V and 20V. My first reaction was 'oh no.. going to fry some 5V electronics with 20V' but if all the negotiation is done right - and not too easy to spoof it should keep people from building cheap adapters to go inline, request the wrong voltage and fry things. The voltages are a nice choice. 5V: backwards compatibility. Everything is 5V. 12V: same as your car - lots of things run on 12V. It is easier to build a step down converter than a step up. so that gives the hackers some options. 20V: It was genius of them to step up to 20V. as others have pointed out, charging a laptop (often 17-20VDC required) is perfect. This is also a good choice for keeping the conductor size small in the cable. We get to 100W (wow). now if you really want to be forward thinking, maybe look at the way electronics have moved from 12V, to 5V, and then to 3.3V. If they want this to be super portable for future use, maybe put in 3.3V - although I can't think of what it would be used for right off.
- Scene_Cast2 14y ago
  3.3V and 1.8V are often used as VCC in embedded processors, and they're the ranges for hard drives & RAM. If you're dealing with those low powered devices, there's usually a dirt-cheap and tiny DC-DC converter on-board. And you're not going to see anything high-powered enough to use these voltages, I don't think. RE: 12V. Your car's voltage supply has huge margins (ripple, DC offset, etc), but in general - sure.

78 points by pwg 14y ago

It would be unbelievably cool to be able to walk into an office with a laptop, and only have to roll out a USB cable from the desk in order to charge it. If there was some way of combining this with an ethernet port, all my prayers would be answered!

dasmoth 14y ago
It's compatible with normal USB2.0 and 3.0. No reason it couldn't be offering ethernet as well as power. At that point it does indeed sound quite compelling.
zokier 14y ago
That is the basic idea behind docking stations
- mseebach 14y ago
  Yep, and the reason they work so well is that everybody has the exact same model laptop. I couldn't care less what the standard is, as long as it's a standard and everybody uses it. 400-pin docking station connectors are not standard, and pity the fool who tries to change that.

nchlswu 14y ago

USB is slowly approaching "single cable" solution. By adding power, USB3 and Thunderbolt are two differentiated solutions moving towards a similar goal.

keeperofdakeys 14y ago
While they are both "single cable" solutions, their differences give them different uses. Currently there are lots of cheap USB gadgets, and you probably have lots of USB cables floating around your house. Thunderbolt uses active cables, which means the cables contain hardware to code the signal specially for that cable. This allows much better guarantees of throughput, while making cables much more expensive. With this in mind, I think we are likely to see thunderbolt used in more 'dedicated' scenarios, like removable harddrives, displays, and printers. Daisy chaining means you don't need many ports either. On the other hand, USB cables are cheap, but have less guarantees on throughput. In fact, since many ports could be on one hub, you can't even use all ports to there maximum potential. USB is likely to stay in its current position for the foreseeable future though.

senthilnayagam 14y ago

I have done research on this topic, it is a standard, not ratisfied yet, and no way your old usb cables can take 100watt power(voltage/amperage), also wall sockets need standards, which is not there yet. there are other working powered USB implementations available http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powered_USB http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powered_USB

lysol 14y ago
The example you cited doesn't even use the same connector. Furthermore, the support of Intel and Microsoft is basically a sure-shot that we'll see an implementation. There's skepticism, and then there's just silliness.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

lallysingh 14y ago

20v@5a! Nice! I can't wait to see USB ports instead of the 13.8v ports we currently have in cars. Sadly my 170w laptop still would need a separate adapter.

morsch 14y ago
Unless your laptop is using 170W all the time, you could still charge it using just 100W. Even a very high powered laptop is probably using <10W in idle.
- beagle3 14y ago
  I used to think that too. But I just measured my ExoPC slate (Tablet, Atom N450, Pine Trail chipset); It draws 0.1W while suspended, 9W idling with screen off, 13W idling with screen on, and 18W with screen on and 100% CPU.
jonknee 14y ago
A decent number of cars have USB ports (usually for audio purposes but they also supply power). Ford Sync comes to mind here.
dspillett 14y ago
Remember that your laptop is unlikely to actually draw 170W at any time unless there is a fault (that it its supply's rated maximum, not what it is expected to draw all the time). Most of the time it'll draw a few 10s of W, maybe stepping up as high as 100W+ when at full tilt (CPU & GPU hammering away, cooling fans on full blast, display at full brightness, all disks spinning & heads flapping, active drives or USB-powered cup warmers in every available port, ...). If you have (or have access to) one of those plug-in power meters give it a try without the battery connected: you might be surprised how little power is being drawn most of the time. A laptop's power system is essentially a UPS: if there is no (or not enough) power coming in from the main source, flip to the battery. This won't be any different for this use: as soon as it wants to draw more than is available it'll see the under-current and switch over. The smoothing capacitors will ensure it can stay alive during the switch-over just as they do when you unplug the charger normally. If it is a little brighter then at times it might be be able to draw as much as it can from the external power and draw the excess from the battery, but I suspect no laptop is currently designed that way (they generally either get more than they need or nothing at all from the external source, so trying to be clever in response to getting half what you need would be over-engineering).

nicholassmith 14y ago

This is awesome, being able to charge everything from a single power plug is a total dream. But it'd mean losing MagSafe and I can't see Apple going down that route.

tjoff 14y ago
Just use an adapter, apple customers seems to love those.
- jonknee 14y ago
  > apple customers seems to love those Er, Apple designers seem to love those.
  - stcredzero 14y ago
    > Er, Apple designers seem to love those. Stockholders should too.
crazygringo 14y ago
Is there any reason you couldn't have both? Use MagSafe at home/work because it's a superior solution, but hopefully Apple hooks up one/all of their USB ports as well to power, so you can recharge with a generic USB cable in a pinch.
- nicholassmith 14y ago
  It's always possible, but I'm not sure would do it. They like their magsafe, they like the form factor, and they're going down the route of sliming it down. If they could pull it off I imagine they would be but thats probably a while off yet.
  - toomuchtodo 14y ago
    Wouldn't they just integrate wireless charging into the battery? To eliminate the need for a port?

dattaway 14y ago

Expect a new class of cheap USB gadgets in the future. USB powered microwave oven. There's a lot of toasty cheese melting power in 20 volts and 5 amps. There's going to be some patents filed...

sp332 14y ago
Way ahead of you https://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/41/fundue.shtml https://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/41/fundue.shtml :) (try the buy now button)
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]

bryanlarsen 14y ago

picture of the new cable: http://m.hexus.net/tech/news/peripherals/42705-new-usb-standard-will-deliver-100w-power/ http://m.hexus.net/tech/news/peripherals/42705-new-usb-stand...

joenathan 14y ago
That is a picture of a standard USB 3.0 A to B cable. Ex. http://www.amazon.com/Micro-Connectors-Superspeed-Cable-Feet/dp/B002UHJ1II http://www.amazon.com/Micro-Connectors-Superspeed-Cable-Feet...
- ars 14y ago
  No it's not. Look at the plastic "tongue" in the middle of it - it was pierced and they put the power connectors inside it.
  - joenathan 14y ago
    Um, yes it is. How about the fact that that particular image is at least 3 years old? here is an article from nov 2009 http://www.tuexperto.com/2009/11/05/intel-no-desarrollara-el-estandar-usb-3-0-hasta-2011/ http://www.tuexperto.com/2009/11/05/intel-no-desarrollara-el... and many more http://www.tineye.com/search/d582fc65885700337f2c3ade01878bcb23db5241/ http://www.tineye.com/search/d582fc65885700337f2c3ade01878bc...
    - ars 14y ago
      Seems you're right. But that makes me wonder where they are adding the pins, there doesn't seem to be room (unless it's inside the connector, with two rows of pins).
polshaw 14y ago
The device end seems really chunky for today's electronics. I can't see that being used to power anything more portable than a laptop (and it's still big for ultraportables) if there is no mini version.

pieter 14y ago

I'd be careful with these; it means you can't plug in an untrusted power supply anymore. Just imagine one of these cables also acting as a USB keyboard, which brings up a new terminal, adds an SSH authorized key and closes the terminal window without you even seeing it.

jonknee 14y ago
How often are you currently plugging in untrusted power supplies? ThunderBolt can chain a lot of different device types but I don't think it's a huge attack vector to plug in untrusted monitors.
- beagle3 14y ago
  > I don't think it's a huge attack vector to plug in untrusted monitors. Yet. Give it a couple of years. The monitors are really smart now - many of them running code and have flash memory. The attack won't be directly by the monitor - the monitor will have been infected by malware earlier ... say, by an infected computer ... Our devices are getting too smart, and our protocols getting too trusty, for our own sake. (Although I'm sure governments and other law abusers like the RIAA are raising a glass to each of these "advancements")
- cdcarter 14y ago
  Personally, I'm borrowing someones magsafe at least once a week. A majority of students at my college use MBPs, so they are abundant.
sp332 14y ago
There's already a hacking platform for that. https://hakshop.myshopify.com/products/usb-rubber-ducky https://hakshop.myshopify.com/products/usb-rubber-ducky Seems like it would be pretty easy to adapt to a USB power supply.
tomjen3 14y ago
Since a true machine charger would have its data ports wired to ground, couldn't you make simple adapter that ensured that was the case? Then security wouldn't be an issue?

miahi 14y ago

As the wireless networks are easier to use, technology that was built for data transfer is now used for power. I would call that cable USC (Universal Serial Charger). It looks like a standardization of a power adapter, but I don't think we can call it USB, as the "serial" part will not be really used. Profiles 4 and 5 would need special power sources, so you cannot just plug your laptop in a simple desktop (or another laptop) and get 100W of power, so you'll get a brick adapter with an USB plug instead of a custom plug - like most cellphones. But I would not expect the brick to use the initial USB function (data transfer). This also means that the cheap Chinese USB power bricks will be even more dangerous.

IsTom 14y ago

Is the USB 3.0 still held by Intel?

Scene_Cast2 14y ago

The duplex power is interesting. Let's say you've got a fully-charged phone (or similar). Would you be able to use it as a battery instead of charging it?

j_baker 14y ago

I'm curious if USB could be turning into the next electrical socket. Imagine if everything you plugged into a wall outlet used USB. Not only would it probably be safer, but it would probably mean the end of country-specific electrical adapters. Outlets like this are already becoming popular: http://www.amazon.com/Newer-Technology-Power2U-Outlet-Charging/dp/B0065I114K http://www.amazon.com/Newer-Technology-Power2U-Outlet-Chargi...

ars 14y ago
Probably not. The 5v ones can't deliver enough power to do much, and if you have 20v you might as well have 120v - you anyway need to convert the voltage to whatever you use internally, and with 120v the wires are 1/5 the size (thickness).
- Dylan16807 14y ago
  I find that argument suspect when I look at all the laptops that run on 19 volts. Internal adapters are a lot messier for 120v. Most computing things love the 12 volt range, my screen uses 19 volts, a fancy light bulb is either LED and low voltage or CFL and gets no benefit from 120. Higher voltage is better for distribution and for very high power loads (including heaters). But a lot of things like low voltage.
  - ars 14y ago
    > Internal adapters are a lot messier for 120v. Why do you say that? Look at any USB charging plug - very simple inside. You only need "messy" electronics for high power or high (above 80%) efficiency. Basically you would need 20v -> 5v vs 120v -> 5v - there isn't really a lot of difference. (There is some, but not enough to make changing everything worthwhile.) Also, the double conversion isn't great (you would need a power supply in each plug), assuming typical 80% power supplies you would end up with end to end 64% efficiency.
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]

K2h 14y ago

It is very interesting to see the group move to a switchable voltage, expecting to support 5V, 12V and 20V. My first reaction was 'oh no.. going to fry some 5V electronics with 20V' but if all the negotiation is done right - and not too easy to spoof it should keep people from building cheap adapters to go inline, request the wrong voltage and fry things. The voltages are a nice choice. 5V: backwards compatibility. Everything is 5V. 12V: same as your car - lots of things run on 12V. It is easier to build a step down converter than a step up. so that gives the hackers some options. 20V: It was genius of them to step up to 20V. as others have pointed out, charging a laptop (often 17-20VDC required) is perfect. This is also a good choice for keeping the conductor size small in the cable. We get to 100W (wow). now if you really want to be forward thinking, maybe look at the way electronics have moved from 12V, to 5V, and then to 3.3V. If they want this to be super portable for future use, maybe put in 3.3V - although I can't think of what it would be used for right off.

Scene_Cast2 14y ago
3.3V and 1.8V are often used as VCC in embedded processors, and they're the ranges for hard drives & RAM. If you're dealing with those low powered devices, there's usually a dirt-cheap and tiny DC-DC converter on-board. And you're not going to see anything high-powered enough to use these voltages, I don't think. RE: 12V. Your car's voltage supply has huge margins (ripple, DC offset, etc), but in general - sure.