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> There are a few reasons for this, but the most concrete is that your behavior in this job has an impact on getting the next one This is completely false. I l

> There are a few reasons for this, but the most concrete is that your behavior in this job has an impact on getting the next one This is completely false. I literally haven't seen someone do a reference check once in the last 10 years. Early 2010s it was more common but this practice is dead. Now every company is a new slate. In fact, I've seen people repeatedly rewarded for jumping ship and build there career on that. Companies have stopped investing in devs, so why should devs not reciprocate? And there are so many startups. More than you can count. There are more new ones every day than you could ever have time to apply to. They don't all have time to talk to each other. Not saying it's not good to have pride in your work, but within reason, and within a framework of fairness and quid pro quo. Don't let people exploit you any more than you exploit them. Employment is 100% transactional and the moment you forget that is the moment you get taken advantage of.

collingreen 2y ago
Their point wasn't reference checks it was the power of a network of people who want to work with you again because they know your work is more than just transactional.
- creer 2y ago
  And sometimes it's funny how little it takes. Some people called me simply because they knew of me (I barely had heard of them). They did that because that was soooo much more efficient that some automatic "job posting" circus and they valued their time and deadlines.
sokoloff 2y ago
The effect’s source is much more direct than that. It’s not a reference check to see “is sam0x17 a good dev?” at the end of a hiring pipeline, but rather “I’ve got an open role and remember that sam0x17 is one of the best devs I’ve ever worked with; let’s get them into the company!”
- ghaff 2y ago
  Or you can drop a line to someone who you've worked with in some manner and ask to meet. That's how I got my last 14-year job.
  - scarface_74 2y ago
    “okay boomer” (context: I’m 50, I am being sarcastic/self deprecating). That might have been feasible pre 2020. But once I started working remotely and looking for jobs outside of the metro area where I spent most of my career, the usefulness of my network dropped dramatically. In my case, I also did a slight pivot and my old network of people who I worked with for the first 25 years of my career can’t speak to my current suitability for a job. You would see the same from someone early career. Their skills would progress so fast it would be crazy to ask someone for a reference who worked with them when they were 22-24 and now they are 27-30.
krainboltgreene 2y ago
Can confirm 17 years in, past performance has never impacted future job prospects.
- samspot 2y ago
  In 17 years you never had a past co-worker contact you about a job? That's confirmation that your past performance is affecting your future job prospects. And if you have had that kind of contact, then your statement above is a lie.
  - whoknowsidont 2y ago
    People are vastly overestimating network effects when you and your peers have similar experience and backgrounds. You'd likely get the job anyways, and the job probably isn't that great (in terms of upward momentum) to begin with. As someone who's done hiring look at the people who have a list of good references. It's basically just the same position/level for _years_ because that's all your network can give or feels comfortable giving you (why would they give you a better job than they have). It's a socioeconomic trap. Just job hop. I promise you nothing else matters.
    - 12345hn6789 2y ago
      Relevant username
      - whoknowsidont 2y ago
        By all means, feel free to demonstrate where your network has gotten you. I'm sure we'll all be envious!
    - ThrowawayR2 2y ago
      That advice is valid for dime-a-dozen coders working dime-a-dozen jobs, which, granted, is the majority of developers, but we're on Hacker News. The more specialized and deeply technical a role is, the smaller the pool of qualified people is and the really senior folks tend to know each other. Networking matters much much more in these smaller tight-knit communities.
AlunAlun 2y ago
> This is completely false. It's not completely false at all - but it does depend greatly depends on which country you're based in. Where I am, in Spain, your network, and your reputation within it, are _everything_. Good jobs will sometimes not even be advertised, as the first thing a hirer will do is ask around their network for recommendations, and those recommendations count for _a lot_. On the other side, when you are looking for work, the first thing you do is ask your network for an intro - and again, that intro counts for a lot. That's not to say that the traditional interview process will be skipped, but candidates coming from recommendations will have a massive head-start over others.
- monsieurbanana 2y ago
  Well... That doesn't bode well for me. I'm in Spain but I've always worked for companies in other countries (including my current remote job).
  - creer 2y ago
    You can still cultivate all these people in random places in your network. Apparently you are in a line of work where other country corporations will do fine, and these people will still need you in their next ventures or posts.
rmah 2y ago
It's not about references. It's about building a network of colleagues who respect you and your work. Many years ago, when I started doing consulting/contracting work, literally all my of my jobs came through people I had previously worked for or with across a variety of companies. And if you play your cards right, as the years roll on, you won't even have to apply for jobs other than as a formality. Instead, people who's respect you've gained will try to bring you into where they work.
- whoknowsidont 2y ago
  > It's about building a network of colleagues who respect you and your work. The network is actually holding you back. You don't need a network to get a new job AND if that person in another company has enough pull to get you in it's actually likely a sign they've been there too long themselves if they're not directly in control of the hiring budget. Just job hop. This ain't your daddy's profession.
CydeWeys 2y ago
They're talking about referrals, not reference checks. Getting good referrals is hugely important, especially at smaller companies that don't the capacity to do a rigorous hiring process.
educasean 2y ago
I spent the last few months interviewing at various bay area startups for senior SE roles. About half of them wanted references. This was my experience so YMMV
- ghaff 2y ago
  A lot of companies tend to ask for them. No idea how many actually follow through and contact them.
  - roguecoder 2y ago
    When I was a hiring manager, I found that reference checks were _more_ predictive of eventual performance than the interview cycle was. After the first time I got burned hiring someone I couldn't get a strong reference for, I got over my laziness and did my job.
    - scarface_74 2y ago
      How so? I’m never going to give you a reference of someone who isn’t going to say glowing things about me
      - ghaff 2y ago
        Seems a bit weird. Unless you're really bad, surely you can round up a few buds who who will say glowing things about you.
      - x0x0 2y ago
        2 points: I've had people not know why I'm reaching out; I've also gotten references selected by the candidate that did not have good things to say. eg "X is difficult to work with." And most people aren't good impromptu liars. So pushing a bit with a reference on what did you work on together? Why is this person fantastic? Would you hire this person? can get you far. And if the reference has left their shared employment, the classic: why haven't you hired this person?
      - 2y ago
knowitnone 2y ago
reference checks are pointless if employee gives you a list of favorable references
the_af 2y ago
> This is completely false. I literally haven't seen someone do a reference check once in the last 10 years. I understand this might not be your experience, but it's far from being "completely false". I have had background checks/reference checks done on me (thankfully my would-be boss told me they were a formality and nobody cared about the results. I say "thankfully" not because I had anything to hide, but because the contractors doing the background checks asked for the dumbest things). I was also contacted by US-based consulting firms and asked to provide references on a former boss of mine, who was now applying for an engineering position... and to my surprise, the reference check involved getting on a call with me! More recently, a relative was applying to a fintech and was asked for references for all her pasts jobs since she started working in the relevant field. I know lots of companies don't care, but many others do. Besides, like other commenters said, it's not only about formal references checking. It's also about the networks you build with coworkers whom you can potentially meet again in other jobs, and whom you want to speak favorably of you. I know I've informally vetoed coworkers whom I knew were terrible at their jobs and I heard recruiting was thinking of making an offer to. Likewise, I've enthusiastically recommended past coworkers who I would enjoy working with again.
hobs 2y ago
It happens all the time as you get higher and higher on the org tree, I had jobs not only call my references by ask if they could also speak to my former bosses. When the money is seriously on the line people care.
wing-_-nuts 2y ago
I'm not sure which market you're in, but companies here absolutely do reference checks. They will even reach out people you didn't list if they're a shared connection. My standing recommendation to everyone is to do good work and get better at advocating for yourself to make sure you're either getting the experience or the comp you need to achieve your goals. If you're not getting that, switch jobs. It's much much better to switch jobs every few years if that's what you need to stay motivated than to stay, do the minimum and collect a paycheck.
- scarface_74 2y ago
  I can guarantee you that no large tech company takes the time to find shared connections. On the other hand, why would I have connections who I didn’t make a good impression on? they are useless to me. I currently work at a 600 person company, I just invited everyone as reference that popped up as a suggestion - I did the same at AWS. Good luck trying to find the people who actually worked with.
mrgoldenbrown 2y ago
Reference checks aren't what matters, it's referrals and getting a job that wasn't ever advertised, because someone knows you're good and offers you the position directly.
Aurornis 2y ago
Reference checks happen a lot. You just don't see them. Most companies stopped asking for references because everyone just games the system. Managers are afraid of giving anything but glowing references because they want to keep their own network opportunities strong. Giving positive references is basically a networking game these days. So that's not how people reference check. Now, they go on LinkedIn and look for mutual connections they trust. They check for people they know whose work history overlapped with the candidate's time at a different company. They go ask that person without the candidate ever knowing. I get probably 10X as many backchannel reference requests as I do formal reference check requests.
- scarface_74 2y ago
  Why would I even have as a connection on LinkedIn with people who I don’t think I made a good impression on? They are useless to me.
turbojet1321 2y ago
It's not at all false IME, though I'm not in SV or the US. Most job want up-front references from at least 2 people, one of whom must be your current supervisor/boss (or someone else higher in the chain of command). You can occasionally get away without it, but it's difficult.
- scarface_74 2y ago
  No one is going to let you talk to your current manager and let them know you are looking for a job. On the other hand, many companies don’t allow managers to give references.
  - turbojet1321 2y ago
    > No one is going to let you talk to your current manager and let them know you are looking for a job. What on earth do you mean? Who is going to stop me from talking to my manager? Over my 20+ year career, in all-but one case my current manager has always been one of my referees and has known that I'm looking for other jobs. Maybe this is a cultural thing. Here (Aus) references from colleagues are basically disregarded and all that prospective employers are interested in is referees from current and former managers.
    - scarface_74 2y ago
      Typo, I meant no one is going to let you talk to their current manager. There is no way I’m going to let my current job know that I’m looking for a job. That would be completely illegal advised.
      - turbojet1321 2y ago
        It's a job; not a cult. People come and go. If I were working somewhere that made me feel like I couldn't leave without being super secretive about it, that would be a huge red flag.
        2y ago

collingreen 2y ago

Their point wasn't reference checks it was the power of a network of people who want to work with you again because they know your work is more than just transactional.

creer 2y ago
And sometimes it's funny how little it takes. Some people called me simply because they knew of me (I barely had heard of them). They did that because that was soooo much more efficient that some automatic "job posting" circus and they valued their time and deadlines.

sokoloff 2y ago

The effect’s source is much more direct than that. It’s not a reference check to see “is sam0x17 a good dev?” at the end of a hiring pipeline, but rather “I’ve got an open role and remember that sam0x17 is one of the best devs I’ve ever worked with; let’s get them into the company!”

ghaff 2y ago
Or you can drop a line to someone who you've worked with in some manner and ask to meet. That's how I got my last 14-year job.
- scarface_74 2y ago
  “okay boomer” (context: I’m 50, I am being sarcastic/self deprecating). That might have been feasible pre 2020. But once I started working remotely and looking for jobs outside of the metro area where I spent most of my career, the usefulness of my network dropped dramatically. In my case, I also did a slight pivot and my old network of people who I worked with for the first 25 years of my career can’t speak to my current suitability for a job. You would see the same from someone early career. Their skills would progress so fast it would be crazy to ask someone for a reference who worked with them when they were 22-24 and now they are 27-30.

krainboltgreene 2y ago

Can confirm 17 years in, past performance has never impacted future job prospects.

samspot 2y ago
In 17 years you never had a past co-worker contact you about a job? That's confirmation that your past performance is affecting your future job prospects. And if you have had that kind of contact, then your statement above is a lie.
- whoknowsidont 2y ago
  People are vastly overestimating network effects when you and your peers have similar experience and backgrounds. You'd likely get the job anyways, and the job probably isn't that great (in terms of upward momentum) to begin with. As someone who's done hiring look at the people who have a list of good references. It's basically just the same position/level for _years_ because that's all your network can give or feels comfortable giving you (why would they give you a better job than they have). It's a socioeconomic trap. Just job hop. I promise you nothing else matters.
  - 12345hn6789 2y ago
    Relevant username
    - whoknowsidont 2y ago
      By all means, feel free to demonstrate where your network has gotten you. I'm sure we'll all be envious!
  - ThrowawayR2 2y ago
    That advice is valid for dime-a-dozen coders working dime-a-dozen jobs, which, granted, is the majority of developers, but we're on Hacker News. The more specialized and deeply technical a role is, the smaller the pool of qualified people is and the really senior folks tend to know each other. Networking matters much much more in these smaller tight-knit communities.

AlunAlun 2y ago

> This is completely false. It's not completely false at all - but it does depend greatly depends on which country you're based in. Where I am, in Spain, your network, and your reputation within it, are _everything_. Good jobs will sometimes not even be advertised, as the first thing a hirer will do is ask around their network for recommendations, and those recommendations count for _a lot_. On the other side, when you are looking for work, the first thing you do is ask your network for an intro - and again, that intro counts for a lot. That's not to say that the traditional interview process will be skipped, but candidates coming from recommendations will have a massive head-start over others.

monsieurbanana 2y ago
Well... That doesn't bode well for me. I'm in Spain but I've always worked for companies in other countries (including my current remote job).
- creer 2y ago
  You can still cultivate all these people in random places in your network. Apparently you are in a line of work where other country corporations will do fine, and these people will still need you in their next ventures or posts.

rmah 2y ago

It's not about references. It's about building a network of colleagues who respect you and your work. Many years ago, when I started doing consulting/contracting work, literally all my of my jobs came through people I had previously worked for or with across a variety of companies. And if you play your cards right, as the years roll on, you won't even have to apply for jobs other than as a formality. Instead, people who's respect you've gained will try to bring you into where they work.

whoknowsidont 2y ago
> It's about building a network of colleagues who respect you and your work. The network is actually holding you back. You don't need a network to get a new job AND if that person in another company has enough pull to get you in it's actually likely a sign they've been there too long themselves if they're not directly in control of the hiring budget. Just job hop. This ain't your daddy's profession.

CydeWeys 2y ago

They're talking about referrals, not reference checks. Getting good referrals is hugely important, especially at smaller companies that don't the capacity to do a rigorous hiring process.

educasean 2y ago

I spent the last few months interviewing at various bay area startups for senior SE roles. About half of them wanted references. This was my experience so YMMV

ghaff 2y ago
A lot of companies tend to ask for them. No idea how many actually follow through and contact them.
- roguecoder 2y ago
  When I was a hiring manager, I found that reference checks were _more_ predictive of eventual performance than the interview cycle was. After the first time I got burned hiring someone I couldn't get a strong reference for, I got over my laziness and did my job.
  - scarface_74 2y ago
    How so? I’m never going to give you a reference of someone who isn’t going to say glowing things about me
    - ghaff 2y ago
      Seems a bit weird. Unless you're really bad, surely you can round up a few buds who who will say glowing things about you.
    - x0x0 2y ago
      2 points: I've had people not know why I'm reaching out; I've also gotten references selected by the candidate that did not have good things to say. eg "X is difficult to work with." And most people aren't good impromptu liars. So pushing a bit with a reference on what did you work on together? Why is this person fantastic? Would you hire this person? can get you far. And if the reference has left their shared employment, the classic: why haven't you hired this person?
    - 2y ago

knowitnone 2y ago

reference checks are pointless if employee gives you a list of favorable references

the_af 2y ago

> This is completely false. I literally haven't seen someone do a reference check once in the last 10 years. I understand this might not be your experience, but it's far from being "completely false". I have had background checks/reference checks done on me (thankfully my would-be boss told me they were a formality and nobody cared about the results. I say "thankfully" not because I had anything to hide, but because the contractors doing the background checks asked for the dumbest things). I was also contacted by US-based consulting firms and asked to provide references on a former boss of mine, who was now applying for an engineering position... and to my surprise, the reference check involved getting on a call with me! More recently, a relative was applying to a fintech and was asked for references for all her pasts jobs since she started working in the relevant field. I know lots of companies don't care, but many others do. Besides, like other commenters said, it's not only about formal references checking. It's also about the networks you build with coworkers whom you can potentially meet again in other jobs, and whom you want to speak favorably of you. I know I've informally vetoed coworkers whom I knew were terrible at their jobs and I heard recruiting was thinking of making an offer to. Likewise, I've enthusiastically recommended past coworkers who I would enjoy working with again.

hobs 2y ago

It happens all the time as you get higher and higher on the org tree, I had jobs not only call my references by ask if they could also speak to my former bosses. When the money is seriously on the line people care.

wing-_-nuts 2y ago

I'm not sure which market you're in, but companies here absolutely do reference checks. They will even reach out people you didn't list if they're a shared connection. My standing recommendation to everyone is to do good work and get better at advocating for yourself to make sure you're either getting the experience or the comp you need to achieve your goals. If you're not getting that, switch jobs. It's much much better to switch jobs every few years if that's what you need to stay motivated than to stay, do the minimum and collect a paycheck.

scarface_74 2y ago
I can guarantee you that no large tech company takes the time to find shared connections. On the other hand, why would I have connections who I didn’t make a good impression on? they are useless to me. I currently work at a 600 person company, I just invited everyone as reference that popped up as a suggestion - I did the same at AWS. Good luck trying to find the people who actually worked with.

mrgoldenbrown 2y ago

Reference checks aren't what matters, it's referrals and getting a job that wasn't ever advertised, because someone knows you're good and offers you the position directly.

Aurornis 2y ago

Reference checks happen a lot. You just don't see them. Most companies stopped asking for references because everyone just games the system. Managers are afraid of giving anything but glowing references because they want to keep their own network opportunities strong. Giving positive references is basically a networking game these days. So that's not how people reference check. Now, they go on LinkedIn and look for mutual connections they trust. They check for people they know whose work history overlapped with the candidate's time at a different company. They go ask that person without the candidate ever knowing. I get probably 10X as many backchannel reference requests as I do formal reference check requests.

scarface_74 2y ago
Why would I even have as a connection on LinkedIn with people who I don’t think I made a good impression on? They are useless to me.

turbojet1321 2y ago

It's not at all false IME, though I'm not in SV or the US. Most job want up-front references from at least 2 people, one of whom must be your current supervisor/boss (or someone else higher in the chain of command). You can occasionally get away without it, but it's difficult.

scarface_74 2y ago
No one is going to let you talk to your current manager and let them know you are looking for a job. On the other hand, many companies don’t allow managers to give references.
- turbojet1321 2y ago
  > No one is going to let you talk to your current manager and let them know you are looking for a job. What on earth do you mean? Who is going to stop me from talking to my manager? Over my 20+ year career, in all-but one case my current manager has always been one of my referees and has known that I'm looking for other jobs. Maybe this is a cultural thing. Here (Aus) references from colleagues are basically disregarded and all that prospective employers are interested in is referees from current and former managers.
  - scarface_74 2y ago
    Typo, I meant no one is going to let you talk to their current manager. There is no way I’m going to let my current job know that I’m looking for a job. That would be completely illegal advised.
    - turbojet1321 2y ago
      It's a job; not a cult. People come and go. If I were working somewhere that made me feel like I couldn't leave without being super secretive about it, that would be a huge red flag.
      - 2y ago