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> but the most concrete is that your behavior in this job has an impact on getting the next one. [ citation needed ] Every job I've worked at has specified wh

> but the most concrete is that your behavior in this job has an impact on getting the next one. [ citation needed ] Every job I've worked at has specified when we provide references, we're to say "X was employed from Y to Z" and if we would hire them again, yes or no. The employee described here would get a yes from me. The fact that they didn't go "above and beyond" will not help them get a job, at least if they happened to work for any of the companies I have. > If people know you are a standout contributor then you will be hired quickly into desirable roles. I guess we could quibble over definitions then, because I as a senior dev managing other devs am perfectly happy with someone who clocks in, does the work on-time and to-spec, and then clocks off as a "standout contributor." I've chastised a few people in my time for committing code on the weekends too, not because I don't appreciate their contribution, but because I consider it part of my job to prevent burnout, voluntary or otherwise. Burned out devs turn out worse work, and they feel worse in the bargain. Textbook definition of a lose-lose. Whatever code is being a pain in the ass today is just that; code. It will be there when you get back from the weekend, it will be there when you get back from a doctor's appointment, it will be there when your kid is done being sick. Life matters. Code... does, but to a lesser extent. > On top of that, carrying around bitterness and cynicism is just bad for you. Which is why I don't want people feeling bitter about their job, and putting in the extra work to, by your own admission, be just as damn likely to get the axe for reasons that are out of your control? That's embittering as fuuuuuuuck. > Pride in good work and pleasure in having an impact on customers and coworkers is good for you. False dichotomy. I love what we build, and I want my subordinates to have fulfilling, happy lives. And I proportion my energy to both of those things in accordance with their importance.

pavel_lishin 2y ago
I don't think it's references that matter, as much as reaching out to former coworkers who have jobs elsewhere, and can be your "in" to a new job.
9rx 2y ago
> I've chastised a few people in my time for committing code on the weekends too, not because I don't appreciate their contribution, but because I consider it part of my job to prevent burnout The best way to avoid burnout in my experience is to work when you have "the itch" to do it. If you're feeling it on a Saturday, why not go for it? You might not be feeling it on Monday and will need the break then instead. If you forego the prime opportunity and then force yourself to do it later when you are not in the right mindset, that is when the burnout is going to get you.
- pavel_lishin 2y ago
  Answering the rhetorical question - because it may set a bad example for other, more junior employees; it may set a new expectation; if the good manager who prevents burnout gets fired, and is replaced with a worse person, they may come to expect you to work six days a week, and instead of preventing burnout by working when you want, you're now being burned out by working not only 5 days a week without any break, but also on one of your weekend days.
  - 9rx 2y ago
    1. Will you survive to see a new manager if you don't work on the weekend? Without that, under the given scenario you are either: - Forcing yourself to work on Monday. Burnout ensues. Will you be able to continue while burnt out? - Skipping Monday too, seeing you only work four days a week. Will you be able to continue under performance expectations? 2. Do you really need to worry about this hypothetical future? If the bad manager shows up, are you going to stick around even if working hours remain the same? He is still going to express his badness in many other ways. He wouldn't be bad otherwise.
    - pavel_lishin 2y ago
      > Without that, under the given scenario you are either: I reject the false dichotomy that my options are "work on the weekend when I'm excited to write code, or suffer and burn out during the week". Maybe that works for you, but I have to show up on Monday regardless of whether I wrote something inspired on Saturday. > 2. Do you really need to worry about this hypothetical future? If the bad manager shows up, are you going to stick around even if working hours remain the same? Weirdly, the bank expects monthly mortgage payments regardless of whether my manager is bad or not.
      - 9rx 2y ago
        > I have to show up on Monday For what, exactly? If it is simply to appease the whims of your manager, you already have the bad manager. Another hypothetical future bad manager is the least of your concerns at that point. Chances are the hypothetical future bad manager will be less bad than the horror show you are already in. > the bank expects monthly mortgage payments regardless of whether my manager is bad or not. There is some risk there, but most tech people already price in that risk by demanding much higher than normal compensation at their job, allowing them to have their mortgages discharged before the bad manager arrives. You might get caught in the unlucky case, but on balance the good managers don't disappear that quickly.
_dark_matter_ 2y ago
FYI that burnout is not "working a lot". Burnout is the feeling of little control, ineffectiveness, COMBINED with stress. Working weekends could instead be an indication of excitement and enthusiasm, which as a manager is worth nurturing. Over time those kinds of people should be given broader ownership and the ability to delegate, where they see fit.
- codr7 2y ago
  Yeah, but what always happens is the more you give, the more they squeeze, until you have nothing left.
- pbhjpbhj 2y ago
  A response to a feeling of ineffectiveness or lack of progress can be 'I need to catch up' which can result in weekend work. That IME can be a spiral. You don't get the rest you need. You feel less effective...
code_for_monkey 2y ago
spoken like a person with other people in their lives that they care about. You seem good to work for. Thanks.
seanc 2y ago
We're not as far apart as you might think. Clock time is correlated with performance, but by no means determinative. More important is initiative, enthusiasm, leadership, reliability, etc. All in, I work very little overtime. And you're right, this is a marathon, and working sustainably is absolutely the most important thing. One can do both. If you love what you build and you're leading a balanced life then I would say you're Doing It Right.
roguecoder 2y ago
If people are seeing the only way to be a "standout contributor" being about putting in more than 40 hours a week, we may have found the disconnect. I don't work more than 40 hours a week, but when I slack off I just do the work put in front of me. Rather than hours, it's about energy. If companies want more than 40 hours a week, we can negotiate overtime. But I put extra energy in during the work week not because I think it makes me extra money or protects me from layoffs. I do it just because I think it is better.

pavel_lishin 2y ago

I don't think it's references that matter, as much as reaching out to former coworkers who have jobs elsewhere, and can be your "in" to a new job.

9rx 2y ago

> I've chastised a few people in my time for committing code on the weekends too, not because I don't appreciate their contribution, but because I consider it part of my job to prevent burnout The best way to avoid burnout in my experience is to work when you have "the itch" to do it. If you're feeling it on a Saturday, why not go for it? You might not be feeling it on Monday and will need the break then instead. If you forego the prime opportunity and then force yourself to do it later when you are not in the right mindset, that is when the burnout is going to get you.

pavel_lishin 2y ago
Answering the rhetorical question - because it may set a bad example for other, more junior employees; it may set a new expectation; if the good manager who prevents burnout gets fired, and is replaced with a worse person, they may come to expect you to work six days a week, and instead of preventing burnout by working when you want, you're now being burned out by working not only 5 days a week without any break, but also on one of your weekend days.
- 9rx 2y ago
  1. Will you survive to see a new manager if you don't work on the weekend? Without that, under the given scenario you are either: - Forcing yourself to work on Monday. Burnout ensues. Will you be able to continue while burnt out? - Skipping Monday too, seeing you only work four days a week. Will you be able to continue under performance expectations? 2. Do you really need to worry about this hypothetical future? If the bad manager shows up, are you going to stick around even if working hours remain the same? He is still going to express his badness in many other ways. He wouldn't be bad otherwise.
  - pavel_lishin 2y ago
    > Without that, under the given scenario you are either: I reject the false dichotomy that my options are "work on the weekend when I'm excited to write code, or suffer and burn out during the week". Maybe that works for you, but I have to show up on Monday regardless of whether I wrote something inspired on Saturday. > 2. Do you really need to worry about this hypothetical future? If the bad manager shows up, are you going to stick around even if working hours remain the same? Weirdly, the bank expects monthly mortgage payments regardless of whether my manager is bad or not.
    - 9rx 2y ago
      > I have to show up on Monday For what, exactly? If it is simply to appease the whims of your manager, you already have the bad manager. Another hypothetical future bad manager is the least of your concerns at that point. Chances are the hypothetical future bad manager will be less bad than the horror show you are already in. > the bank expects monthly mortgage payments regardless of whether my manager is bad or not. There is some risk there, but most tech people already price in that risk by demanding much higher than normal compensation at their job, allowing them to have their mortgages discharged before the bad manager arrives. You might get caught in the unlucky case, but on balance the good managers don't disappear that quickly.

_dark_matter_ 2y ago

FYI that burnout is not "working a lot". Burnout is the feeling of little control, ineffectiveness, COMBINED with stress. Working weekends could instead be an indication of excitement and enthusiasm, which as a manager is worth nurturing. Over time those kinds of people should be given broader ownership and the ability to delegate, where they see fit.

codr7 2y ago
Yeah, but what always happens is the more you give, the more they squeeze, until you have nothing left.
pbhjpbhj 2y ago
A response to a feeling of ineffectiveness or lack of progress can be 'I need to catch up' which can result in weekend work. That IME can be a spiral. You don't get the rest you need. You feel less effective...

code_for_monkey 2y ago

spoken like a person with other people in their lives that they care about. You seem good to work for. Thanks.

seanc 2y ago

We're not as far apart as you might think. Clock time is correlated with performance, but by no means determinative. More important is initiative, enthusiasm, leadership, reliability, etc. All in, I work very little overtime. And you're right, this is a marathon, and working sustainably is absolutely the most important thing. One can do both. If you love what you build and you're leading a balanced life then I would say you're Doing It Right.

roguecoder 2y ago

If people are seeing the only way to be a "standout contributor" being about putting in more than 40 hours a week, we may have found the disconnect. I don't work more than 40 hours a week, but when I slack off I just do the work put in front of me. Rather than hours, it's about energy. If companies want more than 40 hours a week, we can negotiate overtime. But I put extra energy in during the work week not because I think it makes me extra money or protects me from layoffs. I do it just because I think it is better.