7 ms·

I understand people who love Apple (or the OSS world) unconditionally and I understand people who hate either, but I find it hard to feel any kind of strong emo

I understand people who love Apple (or the OSS world) unconditionally and I understand people who hate either, but I find it hard to feel any kind of strong emotion towards Microsoft. Feels like there isn’t a single product person left in the company, no vision, no direction, no soul, no plan, nothing.

isbvhodnvemrwvn 2y ago
It seems like you get a promo for changing names of things. The more convoluted, the higher you get.
- nitwit005 2y ago
  It's probably easier to get ahead by saying you launched a "new product", than "Office release 974".
- Sharlin 2y ago
  I wonder if it's partly about the well-known phenomenon where new product people come in or are promoted and feel they have to assert their dominance by making a change just for the sake of making a change.
hedora 2y ago
It switched from being a software company to a cloud provider about 10 years ago. Things like Azure, LinkedIn and GitHub are where the focus is, since they have recurring revenue and also help them build their surveillance apparatus. Windows and Office are legacy monopoly products, so all you’re going to see from those divisions are price hikes and more mandatory surveillance. Edit: VS Code is an interesting play. It’s “free” because of the telemetry stream and built-in aggressive bundling of GitHub, Copilot, Codespaces, etc.
- Yeul 2y ago
  Well there is only so much you can do with Word and Outlook. Let's be real the difference between Office 2024 and Office 2019 are largely cosmetic. That stuff stopped being exciting a long time ago.
  - k8sToGo 2y ago
    What about the super exciting new Teams and Outlook!
    - userbinator 2y ago
      Exciting, and not in a good way. Teams has popup ads inside the app itself. No, I don't give a bloody damn about whatever stupid new feature you're trying to force upon me when I'm in the middle of a deep conversation with a coworker.
    - layer8 2y ago
      You mean super aggravating.
    - xgkickt 2y ago
      I was trying to join a meeting in Teams from the calendar when up popped a “How are you enjoying Calendar” star rating dialog. I’ve never once listed “Office Calendars” amongst things that I enjoy. Much less now with this needy feedback blocking me from entering the meeting.
      - k8sToGo 2y ago
        Those constant pop ups are super annoying
  - layer8 2y ago
    Excel has interesting new features. It’s the only reason I'm contemplating upgrading.
    - dh2022 2y ago
      Would you mind writing down some of the exciting new Excel features? I am asking as an Excel user that 5 years ago used to love this tool (so much so that I would have paid for Excel if my employers did not provide it for free). Excel 2010 was peak Excel for me. PS. Nobody I know uses Excel's Turing-complete Lambda-calculus. None of my former colleagues in Accounts Receivable, Fixed Assets, Investor Relations, FP&A use it.
kibwen 2y ago
I just tried to use Excel for the first time in ages and somehow it has become completely unfit for purpose. Two series of data, one table of 300 cells containing one automatically extrapolated formula that multiplies the value of the cells in the series. A trivial spreadsheet use case that was solved 40 years ago. Changed the values in one series, and the table just... didn't update. Clicked into the cells and the formulas are right, they're referring to the right cells, it just doesn't update. I edit the cell and hit enter without changing anything. That cell updates, the other 299 don't. What? What?! How is such a fundamental feature of the spreadsheet so utterly broken?? You expect me to go and manually verify that all dependent cells have updated every time I change anything anywhere? Microsoft, you have failed at your most fundamental purpose, zero points awarded. So yeah, I have some pretty strong feelings about Microsoft right now.
- PapaPalpatine 2y ago
  > I just tried to use Excel for the first time in ages … I edit the cell and hit enter without changing anything. That cell updates, the other 299 don't. What? What?! You sure that wasn’t an operator error? Sounds like a pretty basic feature to not have working.
  - kibwen 2y ago
    Trust me, I assumed I did something wrong. 20 minutes of investigation later, I exhausted every other reasonable possibility other than that the software is simply broken. Fun fact, the key combo to manually recalculate all cells is Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F9. That fixed it, but I'll never, ever trust Excel for anything again.
- Khaine 2y ago
  There is a setting in excel that disables auto calculation. This is useful for people who are (ab)using excel with massive data sets and crazy calculations. It sounds like this setting may have been on
  - kibwen 2y ago
citrin_ru 2y ago
They used to make relatively good desktop OS and Office software with a consistent UI/UX - Windows 2000/XP/7, Office 97/2000 (if you disable Clippy). Then IMHO it went downhill first slowly and now faster. May be people are still attached to the platform they used for years.
johnnyanmac 2y ago
"The only problem with Microsoft is they just have no taste. They have absolutely no taste. And I don't mean that in a small way, I mean that in a big way, in the sense that they don't think of original ideas, and they don't bring much culture into their products." - Steve Jobs. 1996 I guess some things never truly change. And thst kind of" culture" is how you amass a cult following (it's in the word, "cult" ure). Outside of early Xbox I can't think of many counterexamples to this.
- 9dev 2y ago
  Well, that's not quite fair. NT is a very interesting and definitely original kernel design, for example; NTFS is a file system with unique properties, and AJAX was an API devised at Microsoft (that one absolutely lacks taste, but at least it's an original idea). That being said, I agree that the company and the brand evoke nothing but negative emotions in me, and I don't know anyone that would have anything better than "meh" on them.
  - lolinder 2y ago
    Those are all technical implementation details, not product features that everyday users can develop an emotional attachment.
  - tliltocatl 2y ago
    NT is a very interesting DEC VMS clone (developed by the same team). In fact 9x was much more original design.
    - michaelcampbell 2y ago
      As/is was 95% of Apple's "innovation" over Xerox, but here we are. I will admit Jobs put "style" and "finish" on things that MS never does.
  - white_dragon88 2y ago
    [dead]
m463 2y ago
I think when a company loses their founder, vision and leadership just aren't the same. apple is also getting watered down. I don't think they've really come out with anything truly novel after sj passed away. In comparison to the ipod or iphone or ipad, the apple watch, vision, apple pay don't seem groundbreaking.
__MatrixMan__ 2y ago
Do you suspect that their plan to use Windows 11 to force everybody onto hardware with a TPM is the result of: > no vision, no direction, no soul, no plan, nothing Based on their increasingly user-hostile decisions up to this point (re: tricking people into using edge, ads in the start menu, etc) it's pretty clear that the name of the game is to monetize their privileged position as OS vendor by selling their users out to the highest bidder. I expect they want TPMs everywhere so that they can abuse the passkey protocol's "attestation statement" to include attestations to advertisers about the user themselves, rather than about the auth circumstances (which is what that field is for). Being able to expose details about the human on the other side of an otherwise anonymous browser session is big money for advertisers, and if everybody has a TPM Microsoft can cryptographically exclude competitors from that channel (they no longer have to care if you're using chrome instead of edge). As for the AI everywhere, that's how they'll get to know you so that there's something to sell. They've got a lot of thought going into their product, it's just that none of that thought is for the benefit of their users. Which is why I heartily disagree with: > I find it hard to feel any kind of strong emotion towards Microsoft
Myrmornis 2y ago
It does seem like their mainstream products are as tastelessly managed as ever. But in the (small?) corner of developer products they've been pretty good: Typescript, VSCode, .NET/C#/F#, LSP, Lean are all great and very influential contributions.
chikere232 2y ago
I find them easy to hate as I only use their products when I work for some company that has made the mistake of standardising on them. If you don't hate microsoft after a few months of working remotely using Teams, Outlook etc, I'll be pretty impressed
Suppafly 2y ago
>but I find it hard to feel any kind of strong emotion towards Microsoft I use a bunch of their products, but I have a strong negative emotion towards them.

isbvhodnvemrwvn 2y ago

It seems like you get a promo for changing names of things. The more convoluted, the higher you get.

nitwit005 2y ago
It's probably easier to get ahead by saying you launched a "new product", than "Office release 974".
Sharlin 2y ago
I wonder if it's partly about the well-known phenomenon where new product people come in or are promoted and feel they have to assert their dominance by making a change just for the sake of making a change.

hedora 2y ago

It switched from being a software company to a cloud provider about 10 years ago. Things like Azure, LinkedIn and GitHub are where the focus is, since they have recurring revenue and also help them build their surveillance apparatus. Windows and Office are legacy monopoly products, so all you’re going to see from those divisions are price hikes and more mandatory surveillance. Edit: VS Code is an interesting play. It’s “free” because of the telemetry stream and built-in aggressive bundling of GitHub, Copilot, Codespaces, etc.

Yeul 2y ago
Well there is only so much you can do with Word and Outlook. Let's be real the difference between Office 2024 and Office 2019 are largely cosmetic. That stuff stopped being exciting a long time ago.
- k8sToGo 2y ago
  What about the super exciting new Teams and Outlook!
  - userbinator 2y ago
    Exciting, and not in a good way. Teams has popup ads inside the app itself. No, I don't give a bloody damn about whatever stupid new feature you're trying to force upon me when I'm in the middle of a deep conversation with a coworker.
  - layer8 2y ago
    You mean super aggravating.
  - xgkickt 2y ago
    I was trying to join a meeting in Teams from the calendar when up popped a “How are you enjoying Calendar” star rating dialog. I’ve never once listed “Office Calendars” amongst things that I enjoy. Much less now with this needy feedback blocking me from entering the meeting.
    - k8sToGo 2y ago
      Those constant pop ups are super annoying
- layer8 2y ago
  Excel has interesting new features. It’s the only reason I'm contemplating upgrading.
  - dh2022 2y ago
    Would you mind writing down some of the exciting new Excel features? I am asking as an Excel user that 5 years ago used to love this tool (so much so that I would have paid for Excel if my employers did not provide it for free). Excel 2010 was peak Excel for me. PS. Nobody I know uses Excel's Turing-complete Lambda-calculus. None of my former colleagues in Accounts Receivable, Fixed Assets, Investor Relations, FP&A use it.

kibwen 2y ago

I just tried to use Excel for the first time in ages and somehow it has become completely unfit for purpose. Two series of data, one table of 300 cells containing one automatically extrapolated formula that multiplies the value of the cells in the series. A trivial spreadsheet use case that was solved 40 years ago. Changed the values in one series, and the table just... didn't update. Clicked into the cells and the formulas are right, they're referring to the right cells, it just doesn't update. I edit the cell and hit enter without changing anything. That cell updates, the other 299 don't. What? What?! How is such a fundamental feature of the spreadsheet so utterly broken?? You expect me to go and manually verify that all dependent cells have updated every time I change anything anywhere? Microsoft, you have failed at your most fundamental purpose, zero points awarded. So yeah, I have some pretty strong feelings about Microsoft right now.

PapaPalpatine 2y ago
> I just tried to use Excel for the first time in ages … I edit the cell and hit enter without changing anything. That cell updates, the other 299 don't. What? What?! You sure that wasn’t an operator error? Sounds like a pretty basic feature to not have working.
- kibwen 2y ago
  Trust me, I assumed I did something wrong. 20 minutes of investigation later, I exhausted every other reasonable possibility other than that the software is simply broken. Fun fact, the key combo to manually recalculate all cells is Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F9. That fixed it, but I'll never, ever trust Excel for anything again.
Khaine 2y ago
There is a setting in excel that disables auto calculation. This is useful for people who are (ab)using excel with massive data sets and crazy calculations. It sounds like this setting may have been on
- kibwen 2y ago

citrin_ru 2y ago

They used to make relatively good desktop OS and Office software with a consistent UI/UX - Windows 2000/XP/7, Office 97/2000 (if you disable Clippy). Then IMHO it went downhill first slowly and now faster. May be people are still attached to the platform they used for years.

johnnyanmac 2y ago

"The only problem with Microsoft is they just have no taste. They have absolutely no taste. And I don't mean that in a small way, I mean that in a big way, in the sense that they don't think of original ideas, and they don't bring much culture into their products." - Steve Jobs. 1996 I guess some things never truly change. And thst kind of" culture" is how you amass a cult following (it's in the word, "cult" ure). Outside of early Xbox I can't think of many counterexamples to this.

9dev 2y ago
Well, that's not quite fair. NT is a very interesting and definitely original kernel design, for example; NTFS is a file system with unique properties, and AJAX was an API devised at Microsoft (that one absolutely lacks taste, but at least it's an original idea). That being said, I agree that the company and the brand evoke nothing but negative emotions in me, and I don't know anyone that would have anything better than "meh" on them.
- lolinder 2y ago
  Those are all technical implementation details, not product features that everyday users can develop an emotional attachment.
- tliltocatl 2y ago
  NT is a very interesting DEC VMS clone (developed by the same team). In fact 9x was much more original design.
  - michaelcampbell 2y ago
    As/is was 95% of Apple's "innovation" over Xerox, but here we are. I will admit Jobs put "style" and "finish" on things that MS never does.
- white_dragon88 2y ago
  [dead]

m463 2y ago

I think when a company loses their founder, vision and leadership just aren't the same. apple is also getting watered down. I don't think they've really come out with anything truly novel after sj passed away. In comparison to the ipod or iphone or ipad, the apple watch, vision, apple pay don't seem groundbreaking.

__MatrixMan__ 2y ago

Do you suspect that their plan to use Windows 11 to force everybody onto hardware with a TPM is the result of: > no vision, no direction, no soul, no plan, nothing Based on their increasingly user-hostile decisions up to this point (re: tricking people into using edge, ads in the start menu, etc) it's pretty clear that the name of the game is to monetize their privileged position as OS vendor by selling their users out to the highest bidder. I expect they want TPMs everywhere so that they can abuse the passkey protocol's "attestation statement" to include attestations to advertisers about the user themselves, rather than about the auth circumstances (which is what that field is for). Being able to expose details about the human on the other side of an otherwise anonymous browser session is big money for advertisers, and if everybody has a TPM Microsoft can cryptographically exclude competitors from that channel (they no longer have to care if you're using chrome instead of edge). As for the AI everywhere, that's how they'll get to know you so that there's something to sell. They've got a lot of thought going into their product, it's just that none of that thought is for the benefit of their users. Which is why I heartily disagree with: > I find it hard to feel any kind of strong emotion towards Microsoft

Myrmornis 2y ago

It does seem like their mainstream products are as tastelessly managed as ever. But in the (small?) corner of developer products they've been pretty good: Typescript, VSCode, .NET/C#/F#, LSP, Lean are all great and very influential contributions.

chikere232 2y ago

I find them easy to hate as I only use their products when I work for some company that has made the mistake of standardising on them. If you don't hate microsoft after a few months of working remotely using Teams, Outlook etc, I'll be pretty impressed

Suppafly 2y ago

>but I find it hard to feel any kind of strong emotion towards Microsoft I use a bunch of their products, but I have a strong negative emotion towards them.