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A real world example: wage theft in the US is bigger than all other forms of theft combined. How often do you hear about it? We hear endlessly about shoplifting

A real world example: wage theft in the US is bigger than all other forms of theft combined. How often do you hear about it? We hear endlessly about shoplifting rings and lax enforcement by lefty prosecutors. When was the last time you saw coverage of workers not being paid what they’re owed? When was the last time somebody went to jail for not paying their workers what they’re owed?

SpicyLemonZest 2y ago
I routinely see coverage of workers not being paid what they’re owed. People do sometimes go to jail for not paying workers what they’re owed (https://kfoxtv.com/amp/news/local/el-paso-contractor-jailed-for-wage-theft-failing-to-pay-workers-and-subcontractors-joseph-arroyos-theft-of-service-theft-of-property https://kfoxtv.com/amp/news/local/el-paso-contractor-jailed-...), but this article illustrates pretty clearly why you don’t hear more about it. Advocacy orgs aren’t going to brag about some random contractor or McDonalds supervisor going to jail, and the corporate fat cats they could brag about rarely commit wage theft themselves.
- wat10000 2y ago
  We need to redefine what it means to commit this sort of crime. The modern corporation is an expert in dodging responsibility. Upper management will make it very clear that everyone is expected to follow the law at all times. Then they’ll set up incentives, requirements, and quotas that more or less require breaking the law to meet. When the inevitable occurs, they’ll wring their hand and say, we don’t condone that behavior. The management chain needs to be held more responsible for actions at the bottom. That doesn’t mean we put them in jail for every misdeed by some front-line worker, but they shouldn’t be allowed to turn a blind eye to systematic lawbreaking.
  - SpicyLemonZest 2y ago
    Wage theft, like any other kind of theft, is a self-incentivizing crime. I agree people shouldn't be allowed to turn a blind eye to systematic lawbreaking, but no system of incentives can erase the fundamental accounting identity that a business unit will have more money if they pay workers less than promised.
    - wat10000 2y ago
      It’s easy to to erase that identity. You make the expected value of the punishment (cost multiplied by probability of getting caught) higher than the expected value of the crime. This should be easier to deal with than most crimes. The problem with individual crimes is that criminals are generally bad at thinking through the consequences. No matter how terrible the punishment is, you’re still going to have murders, because the typical murderer isn’t weighing the cost/benefit tradeoff. Companies are much better at this, especially big ones. Make wage theft unprofitable and it will drop dramatically.
mminer237 2y ago
That's not actually true. Wage theft is maybe third: https://truthnotoutrage.com/2023/12/05/retail-theft-dwarfs-wage-theft/ https://truthnotoutrage.com/2023/12/05/retail-theft-dwarfs-w... By all indicia, shoplifting is a much bigger problem. I know this myth and wage theft in general are really popular on social media. I think its lacking of representation in traditional media and prosecution is a mix of how much more clear-cut shoplifting is and just the victims report it more.
- wat10000 2y ago
  Thanks. I suppose the “more than all others combined” would be “except shoplifting,” which is a big “except.” I still maintain that wage theft is covered and enforced far less than it should be given the scale, precisely because of who the victims and perpetrators are. Your link lays it out nicely: “ While wage theft is a horrible crime against workers, retail theft also directly causes higher costs for consumers and arguably hurts workers even more than wage theft does.” Don’t worry about what we’re stealing from you, peons, the real problem is what you’re stealing from us.
  - datavirtue 2y ago
    Wage theft always starts with labor law compliance. They didn't take the required break on their shift...better adjust the hours to be compliant. Now it's normalized and rationalized. Each employee has to make a stink to address the theft and are dismissed without a second thought. I used to work blue collar service industry and saw this happen in nearly every company where I worked. There is no union or personal agency. The individual worker is discarded at the first sign of legal friction. I worked a job where every person worked 63 hours a week standard at $7.50 an hour. We would have a lunch break where one person would go fetch lunch and bring it back each day. We would all meet in the break room and scarf down our food in a few minutes and get back on the floor. We literally clocked this on time cards. We might take up to fifteen minutes to eat but accounting would adjust it to 30 minutes every time. No consultation, warnings or notices of any kind. The timecard was gone at the end of each week so you had no record of your actual punches.
- insane_dreamer 2y ago
datavirtue 2y ago
You don't talk bad about the advertisers.

SpicyLemonZest 2y ago

I routinely see coverage of workers not being paid what they’re owed. People do sometimes go to jail for not paying workers what they’re owed (https://kfoxtv.com/amp/news/local/el-paso-contractor-jailed-for-wage-theft-failing-to-pay-workers-and-subcontractors-joseph-arroyos-theft-of-service-theft-of-property https://kfoxtv.com/amp/news/local/el-paso-contractor-jailed-...), but this article illustrates pretty clearly why you don’t hear more about it. Advocacy orgs aren’t going to brag about some random contractor or McDonalds supervisor going to jail, and the corporate fat cats they could brag about rarely commit wage theft themselves.

wat10000 2y ago
We need to redefine what it means to commit this sort of crime. The modern corporation is an expert in dodging responsibility. Upper management will make it very clear that everyone is expected to follow the law at all times. Then they’ll set up incentives, requirements, and quotas that more or less require breaking the law to meet. When the inevitable occurs, they’ll wring their hand and say, we don’t condone that behavior. The management chain needs to be held more responsible for actions at the bottom. That doesn’t mean we put them in jail for every misdeed by some front-line worker, but they shouldn’t be allowed to turn a blind eye to systematic lawbreaking.
- SpicyLemonZest 2y ago
  Wage theft, like any other kind of theft, is a self-incentivizing crime. I agree people shouldn't be allowed to turn a blind eye to systematic lawbreaking, but no system of incentives can erase the fundamental accounting identity that a business unit will have more money if they pay workers less than promised.
  - wat10000 2y ago
    It’s easy to to erase that identity. You make the expected value of the punishment (cost multiplied by probability of getting caught) higher than the expected value of the crime. This should be easier to deal with than most crimes. The problem with individual crimes is that criminals are generally bad at thinking through the consequences. No matter how terrible the punishment is, you’re still going to have murders, because the typical murderer isn’t weighing the cost/benefit tradeoff. Companies are much better at this, especially big ones. Make wage theft unprofitable and it will drop dramatically.

mminer237 2y ago

That's not actually true. Wage theft is maybe third: https://truthnotoutrage.com/2023/12/05/retail-theft-dwarfs-wage-theft/ https://truthnotoutrage.com/2023/12/05/retail-theft-dwarfs-w... By all indicia, shoplifting is a much bigger problem. I know this myth and wage theft in general are really popular on social media. I think its lacking of representation in traditional media and prosecution is a mix of how much more clear-cut shoplifting is and just the victims report it more.

wat10000 2y ago
Thanks. I suppose the “more than all others combined” would be “except shoplifting,” which is a big “except.” I still maintain that wage theft is covered and enforced far less than it should be given the scale, precisely because of who the victims and perpetrators are. Your link lays it out nicely: “ While wage theft is a horrible crime against workers, retail theft also directly causes higher costs for consumers and arguably hurts workers even more than wage theft does.” Don’t worry about what we’re stealing from you, peons, the real problem is what you’re stealing from us.
- datavirtue 2y ago
  Wage theft always starts with labor law compliance. They didn't take the required break on their shift...better adjust the hours to be compliant. Now it's normalized and rationalized. Each employee has to make a stink to address the theft and are dismissed without a second thought. I used to work blue collar service industry and saw this happen in nearly every company where I worked. There is no union or personal agency. The individual worker is discarded at the first sign of legal friction. I worked a job where every person worked 63 hours a week standard at $7.50 an hour. We would have a lunch break where one person would go fetch lunch and bring it back each day. We would all meet in the break room and scarf down our food in a few minutes and get back on the floor. We literally clocked this on time cards. We might take up to fifteen minutes to eat but accounting would adjust it to 30 minutes every time. No consultation, warnings or notices of any kind. The timecard was gone at the end of each week so you had no record of your actual punches.
insane_dreamer 2y ago

datavirtue 2y ago

You don't talk bad about the advertisers.