5 ms·

What a moment for America. How many countries would push $10 million worth of aircraft (1970s money) to save civilians?

by arresin 2y ago

keybored 2y ago
I don’t know. My first instinct isn’t to assume that the first anecdote I find of something is unique to some entity.
esperent 2y ago
I've always wondered about this event: did someone go against orders to do this? Did they get in trouble?
- duxup 2y ago
  I suspect someone could make up some sort of violation, but it seems like it is unlikely there's a specific order preventing them. Ship's captain is going to have a lot of leeway to complete his mission. Punishing a high ranking officer in their efforts to save allies would not look great, and at the end of the Vietnam War, I'm not sure who was interested in that.
- rl3 2y ago
  It's right there in the article: From the bridge Chambers quickly consulted task force commander Adm. William Harris, who was at his battle station below deck. “The admiral ordered me to tell the Bird Dog to ditch,” Chambers later recalled. [...] Assuming he would be court martialed, Chambers ordered those helicopters thrown overboard as well. He later told interviewers that since he expected to be deposed by prosecutors, he turned away from the action to avoid seeing exactly how many were pushed into the sea. [...] Chambers kept his job as the aircraft carrier’s captain and was later promoted to rear admiral; he retired in 1984. Nobody was prosecuted for the estimated $10 million loss of the helicopters that Chambers ordered overboard.
- brookst 2y ago
  The article talks about the ships captain expecting to be court-martialed for it, but ultimately being promoted (not necessarily for this act).
- refurb 2y ago
  There was a very small presence of Americans in South Vietnam at the time - around 5,000. Mostly US government workers (e.g. USAID), CIA and some military. When the US disengaged in 1973, it left most of the military equipment and gave it to South Vietnam. So most of the helicopters and such that fled to the US fleet were South Vietnamese aircraft, not US aircraft. So I assume the US has pretty much written them off before that.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
RajT88 2y ago
I am pretty jaded. This story really touched me; Vietnam was ugly. Really ugly. You don't expect to read these sorts of stories.
reaperducer 2y ago
How many countries would push $10 million worth of aircraft (1970s money) to save civilians? I know anti-American sentiment is very trendy on HN, but I found this interesting: Sirius Satellite Radio runs 1970's episodes of American Top 40 with Casey Casem on Sundays. A few weeks ago I was surprised to hear a spoken-word piece called "Americans" by a Canadian named Byron MacGregor was a top-40 hit. Here's a sample of the lyrics: When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age It was the Americans who rebuilt them When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke Nobody loaned them an old caboose Both are still broke I can name you five thousand times When the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble Can you name me even one time When someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help Even during the San Francisco earthquake You can read the full lyrics here: https://genius.com/Byron-macgregor-americans-lyrics https://genius.com/Byron-macgregor-americans-lyrics
- bradrn 2y ago
  Apparently it was by Gordon Sinclair originally: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Americans_(commentary) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Americans_(commentary)
- keybored 2y ago
  “Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent war mongering Americans I'd like to just see one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States Dollar build its own airplanes Come on, let's hear it Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing jumbo jet The Lockheed Tri-star or the Douglas-10? If so, why don't they fly them?” I found this so-called song hosted on the “Vietnam War Song Project” YT account. Yeah, why were people against the Vietnam War? When America had planes? Ridiculous priorities.
  - pjc50 2y ago
    > Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing jumbo jet Guess somebody hasn't heard of Airbus. Or, these days, Embraer. If other countries didn't have competitive aircraft the US wouldn't feel the need for tariffs.
stonesthrowaway 2y ago
[flagged]
- arresin 2y ago
  Yeah you’re actually right. I should have said “Americans”, meaning the individuals. You know history is truly shaped by the victors as no one should forget the unthinkable horrors the country inflicted on civilians yet here we are.
p3rls 2y ago
Eh, even nazis did stuff like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laconia_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laconia_incident Saving civilians is incumbent on you in war whenever possible. Not like North Vietnam is going to start doing some strafing runs on your fleet either for an excuse.
- Hnrobert42 2y ago
  So, 2?
  - dmurray 2y ago
    No, there were dozens of examples during that North Atlantic campaign. The U-boats would presumably have continued to rescue enemy military and civilian survivors throughout the war, if it hadn't been for the war crimes of the USAF which bombed the rescuers.
  - p3rls 2y ago
    You think only two countries would destroy a few helicopters' worth of value to rescue allied civilians during wartime evacuations where they're not under fire? I suspect we'd be pushing a catalogue of 100+ countries. Loads of examples from WW2 like Dunkirk/Operation Hannibal where you see the sacrifice of material for civilians.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
  - synecdoche 2y ago
    1. Survivorship bias 2. Countries didn't do it. Individuals did.
pjc50 2y ago
From reading bits of WW2 naval history, it seems "push aircraft off the carrier in an emergency" was more doctrine than you'd expect. Because the fuel is such a fire risk. The worst-case scenario would be not pushing the aircraft off, the Cessna attempts a landing anyway, collides, and sets the entire carrier deck ablaze. Hundreds dead and the carrier potentially lost.
maxglute 2y ago
Not to place value on the act. IIRC Mass produced Vietnam Hueys are "only" 4M each in current USD and many were heavily used / deprecated.
whimsicalism 2y ago
it does sound like they were legitimately afraid he would crash the plane into the ship otherwise

What a moment for America. How many countries would push $10 million worth of aircraft (1970s money) to save civilians?

keybored 2y ago

I don’t know. My first instinct isn’t to assume that the first anecdote I find of something is unique to some entity.

esperent 2y ago

I've always wondered about this event: did someone go against orders to do this? Did they get in trouble?

duxup 2y ago
I suspect someone could make up some sort of violation, but it seems like it is unlikely there's a specific order preventing them. Ship's captain is going to have a lot of leeway to complete his mission. Punishing a high ranking officer in their efforts to save allies would not look great, and at the end of the Vietnam War, I'm not sure who was interested in that.
rl3 2y ago
It's right there in the article: From the bridge Chambers quickly consulted task force commander Adm. William Harris, who was at his battle station below deck. “The admiral ordered me to tell the Bird Dog to ditch,” Chambers later recalled. [...] Assuming he would be court martialed, Chambers ordered those helicopters thrown overboard as well. He later told interviewers that since he expected to be deposed by prosecutors, he turned away from the action to avoid seeing exactly how many were pushed into the sea. [...] Chambers kept his job as the aircraft carrier’s captain and was later promoted to rear admiral; he retired in 1984. Nobody was prosecuted for the estimated $10 million loss of the helicopters that Chambers ordered overboard.
brookst 2y ago
The article talks about the ships captain expecting to be court-martialed for it, but ultimately being promoted (not necessarily for this act).
refurb 2y ago
There was a very small presence of Americans in South Vietnam at the time - around 5,000. Mostly US government workers (e.g. USAID), CIA and some military. When the US disengaged in 1973, it left most of the military equipment and gave it to South Vietnam. So most of the helicopters and such that fled to the US fleet were South Vietnamese aircraft, not US aircraft. So I assume the US has pretty much written them off before that.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

RajT88 2y ago

I am pretty jaded. This story really touched me; Vietnam was ugly. Really ugly. You don't expect to read these sorts of stories.

reaperducer 2y ago

How many countries would push $10 million worth of aircraft (1970s money) to save civilians? I know anti-American sentiment is very trendy on HN, but I found this interesting: Sirius Satellite Radio runs 1970's episodes of American Top 40 with Casey Casem on Sundays. A few weeks ago I was surprised to hear a spoken-word piece called "Americans" by a Canadian named Byron MacGregor was a top-40 hit. Here's a sample of the lyrics: When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age It was the Americans who rebuilt them When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke Nobody loaned them an old caboose Both are still broke I can name you five thousand times When the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble Can you name me even one time When someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help Even during the San Francisco earthquake You can read the full lyrics here: https://genius.com/Byron-macgregor-americans-lyrics https://genius.com/Byron-macgregor-americans-lyrics

bradrn 2y ago
Apparently it was by Gordon Sinclair originally: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Americans_(commentary) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Americans_(commentary)
keybored 2y ago
“Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent war mongering Americans I'd like to just see one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States Dollar build its own airplanes Come on, let's hear it Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing jumbo jet The Lockheed Tri-star or the Douglas-10? If so, why don't they fly them?” I found this so-called song hosted on the “Vietnam War Song Project” YT account. Yeah, why were people against the Vietnam War? When America had planes? Ridiculous priorities.
- pjc50 2y ago
  > Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing jumbo jet Guess somebody hasn't heard of Airbus. Or, these days, Embraer. If other countries didn't have competitive aircraft the US wouldn't feel the need for tariffs.

stonesthrowaway 2y ago

[flagged]

arresin 2y ago
Yeah you’re actually right. I should have said “Americans”, meaning the individuals. You know history is truly shaped by the victors as no one should forget the unthinkable horrors the country inflicted on civilians yet here we are.

p3rls 2y ago

Eh, even nazis did stuff like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laconia_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laconia_incident Saving civilians is incumbent on you in war whenever possible. Not like North Vietnam is going to start doing some strafing runs on your fleet either for an excuse.

Hnrobert42 2y ago
So, 2?
- dmurray 2y ago
  No, there were dozens of examples during that North Atlantic campaign. The U-boats would presumably have continued to rescue enemy military and civilian survivors throughout the war, if it hadn't been for the war crimes of the USAF which bombed the rescuers.
- p3rls 2y ago
  You think only two countries would destroy a few helicopters' worth of value to rescue allied civilians during wartime evacuations where they're not under fire? I suspect we'd be pushing a catalogue of 100+ countries. Loads of examples from WW2 like Dunkirk/Operation Hannibal where you see the sacrifice of material for civilians.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- synecdoche 2y ago
  1. Survivorship bias 2. Countries didn't do it. Individuals did.

pjc50 2y ago

From reading bits of WW2 naval history, it seems "push aircraft off the carrier in an emergency" was more doctrine than you'd expect. Because the fuel is such a fire risk. The worst-case scenario would be not pushing the aircraft off, the Cessna attempts a landing anyway, collides, and sets the entire carrier deck ablaze. Hundreds dead and the carrier potentially lost.

maxglute 2y ago

Not to place value on the act. IIRC Mass produced Vietnam Hueys are "only" 4M each in current USD and many were heavily used / deprecated.

whimsicalism 2y ago

it does sound like they were legitimately afraid he would crash the plane into the ship otherwise