3 ms·

Oh, my experience was different. Got the model through ollama. I'm quite impressed how they managed to bake in the censorship. It's actually quite open about it

by jona-f 2y ago

Oh, my experience was different. Got the model through ollama. I'm quite impressed how they managed to bake in the censorship. It's actually quite open about it. I guess censorship doesnt have as bad a rep in china as it has here? So it seems to me that's one of the main achievements of this model. Also another finger to anyone who said they can't publish their models cause of ethical reasons. Deepseek demonstrated clearly that you can have an open model that is annoyingly responsible to the point of being useless.

throwaway314155 2y ago
> I guess censorship doesnt have as bad a rep in china as it has here It's probably disliked, just people know not to talk about it so blatantly due to chilling effects from aforementioned censorship. disclaimer: ignorant American, no clue what i'm talking about.
- fragmede 2y ago
  on the topic of censorship, US LLMs' censorship is called alignment. llama or ChatGPT's refusal on how to make meth or nuclear bombs is the same as not answering questions abput Tiananmen tank man as far as the matrix math word prediction box is concerned.
  - throwaway314155 2y ago
    The distinction is that one form of censorship is clearly done for public relations purposes from profit minded individuals while the other is a top down mandate to effectively rewrite history from the government.
    - lecretinus 2y ago
      >to effectively rewrite history from the government. This is disingenuous. It's not "rewriting" anything, it's simply refusing to answer. Western models, on the other hand, often try to lecture or give blatantly biased responses instead of simply refusing when prompted on topics considered controversial in the burger land. OpenAI even helpfully flags prompts as potentially violating their guidelines.
- jampekka 2y ago
  My guess would be that most Chinese even support the censorship at least to an extent for its stabilizing effect etc. CCP has quite a high approval rating in China even when it's polled more confidentially. https://dornsife.usc.edu/news/stories/chinese-communist-party-support-lower-when-surveys-anonymous/ https://dornsife.usc.edu/news/stories/chinese-communist-part...
  - kdmtctl 2y ago
    Yep. And invent a new type of VPN every quarter to break free. The indifferent mass prevails in every country, similarly cold to the First Amendment and Censorship. And engineers just do what they love to do, coping with reality. Activism is not for everyone.
    - jampekka 2y ago
      Indeed. At least as long as the living conditions are tolerable (for them), most people don't really care about things like censorship or surveillance or propaganda, no matter the system. The ones inventing the VPNs are a small minority, and it seems that CCP isn't really that bothered about such small minorities as long as they don't make a ruckus. AFAIU just using a VPN as such is very unlikely to lead to any trouble in China. For example in geopolitical matters the media is extremely skewed everywhere, and everywhere most people kind of pretend it's not. It's a lot more convenient to go with whatever is the prevailing narrative about things going on somewhere oceans away than to risk being associated with "the enemy".
      - kdmtctl 2y ago
        They do request to take down repos, sometimes in person for a disciplinary effect. And GFW is very effective, BTW. Wholeheartedly agree with the rest of the comment.
nwienert 2y ago
I mean US models are highly censored too.
- audunw 2y ago
  How exactly? Is there any models that refuse to give answers about “the trail of tears”? False equivalency if you ask me. There may be some alignment to make the models polite and avoid outright racist replies and such. But political censorship? Please elaborate
  - nwienert 2y ago
    I guess it depends on what you care about more: systemic "political" bias or omitting some specific historical facts. IMO the first is more nefarious, and it's deeply embedded into western models. Ask how COVID originated, or about gender, race, women's pay, etc. They basically are modern liberal thinking machines. Now the funny thing is you can tell DeepSeek is trained on western models, it will even recommend puberty blockers at age 10. Something I'm positive the Chinese government is against. But we're discussing theoretical long-term censorship, not the exact current state due to specific and temporary ways they are being built now.
aunty_helen 2y ago
Second this, vanilla 70b running locally fully censored. Could even see in the thought tokens what it didn’t want to talk about.
yetanotherjosh 2y ago
don't confuse the actual R1 (671b params) with the distilled models (the ones that are plausible to run locally.) Just as you shouldn't conclude about how o1 behaves when you are using o1-mini. maybe you're running the 671b model via ollama, but most folks here are not

by jona-f 2y ago

throwaway314155 2y ago

> I guess censorship doesnt have as bad a rep in china as it has here It's probably disliked, just people know not to talk about it so blatantly due to chilling effects from aforementioned censorship. disclaimer: ignorant American, no clue what i'm talking about.

fragmede 2y ago
on the topic of censorship, US LLMs' censorship is called alignment. llama or ChatGPT's refusal on how to make meth or nuclear bombs is the same as not answering questions abput Tiananmen tank man as far as the matrix math word prediction box is concerned.
- throwaway314155 2y ago
  The distinction is that one form of censorship is clearly done for public relations purposes from profit minded individuals while the other is a top down mandate to effectively rewrite history from the government.
  - lecretinus 2y ago
    >to effectively rewrite history from the government. This is disingenuous. It's not "rewriting" anything, it's simply refusing to answer. Western models, on the other hand, often try to lecture or give blatantly biased responses instead of simply refusing when prompted on topics considered controversial in the burger land. OpenAI even helpfully flags prompts as potentially violating their guidelines.
jampekka 2y ago
My guess would be that most Chinese even support the censorship at least to an extent for its stabilizing effect etc. CCP has quite a high approval rating in China even when it's polled more confidentially. https://dornsife.usc.edu/news/stories/chinese-communist-party-support-lower-when-surveys-anonymous/ https://dornsife.usc.edu/news/stories/chinese-communist-part...
- kdmtctl 2y ago
  Yep. And invent a new type of VPN every quarter to break free. The indifferent mass prevails in every country, similarly cold to the First Amendment and Censorship. And engineers just do what they love to do, coping with reality. Activism is not for everyone.
  - jampekka 2y ago
    Indeed. At least as long as the living conditions are tolerable (for them), most people don't really care about things like censorship or surveillance or propaganda, no matter the system. The ones inventing the VPNs are a small minority, and it seems that CCP isn't really that bothered about such small minorities as long as they don't make a ruckus. AFAIU just using a VPN as such is very unlikely to lead to any trouble in China. For example in geopolitical matters the media is extremely skewed everywhere, and everywhere most people kind of pretend it's not. It's a lot more convenient to go with whatever is the prevailing narrative about things going on somewhere oceans away than to risk being associated with "the enemy".
    - kdmtctl 2y ago
      They do request to take down repos, sometimes in person for a disciplinary effect. And GFW is very effective, BTW. Wholeheartedly agree with the rest of the comment.

nwienert 2y ago

I mean US models are highly censored too.

audunw 2y ago
How exactly? Is there any models that refuse to give answers about “the trail of tears”? False equivalency if you ask me. There may be some alignment to make the models polite and avoid outright racist replies and such. But political censorship? Please elaborate
- nwienert 2y ago
  I guess it depends on what you care about more: systemic "political" bias or omitting some specific historical facts. IMO the first is more nefarious, and it's deeply embedded into western models. Ask how COVID originated, or about gender, race, women's pay, etc. They basically are modern liberal thinking machines. Now the funny thing is you can tell DeepSeek is trained on western models, it will even recommend puberty blockers at age 10. Something I'm positive the Chinese government is against. But we're discussing theoretical long-term censorship, not the exact current state due to specific and temporary ways they are being built now.

aunty_helen 2y ago

Second this, vanilla 70b running locally fully censored. Could even see in the thought tokens what it didn’t want to talk about.

yetanotherjosh 2y ago

don't confuse the actual R1 (671b params) with the distilled models (the ones that are plausible to run locally.) Just as you shouldn't conclude about how o1 behaves when you are using o1-mini. maybe you're running the 671b model via ollama, but most folks here are not