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How can openai justify their $200/mo subscriptions if a model like this exists at an incredibly low price point? Operator? I've been impressed in my brief pers

by msp26 2y ago

How can openai justify their $200/mo subscriptions if a model like this exists at an incredibly low price point? Operator? I've been impressed in my brief personal testing and the model ranks very highly across most benchmarks (when controlled for style it's tied number one on lmarena). It's also hilarious that openai explicitly prevented users from seeing the CoT tokens on the o1 model (which you still pay for btw) to avoid a situation where someone trained on that output. Turns out it made no difference lmao.

tokioyoyo 2y ago
From my casual read, right now everyone is on reputation tarnishing tirade, like spamming “Chinese stealing data! Definitely lying about everything! API can’t be this cheap!”. If that doesn’t go through well, I’m assuming lobbyism will start for import controls, which is very stupid. I have no idea how they can recover from it, if DeepSeek’s product is what they’re advertising.
- itsoktocry 2y ago
  So you're saying that this is the end of OpenAI? Somehow I doubt it.
  - tokioyoyo 2y ago
    Hah I agree, they will find a way. In the end, the big winners will be the ones who find use cases other than a general chatbot. Or AGI, I guess.
  - rkozik1989 2y ago
    If they can offer enterprise-level support for everything they're in a prime position to be the Oracle of AI. In the sense that open-source programming languages can out preform Java in certain instances, but they choose Oracle because they can just pick a phone and the person on the other can solve any issue they have. DeepSeek without a for-profit model just wont be able to offer such a service.
- creato 2y ago
  Funny, everything I see (not actively looking for DeepSeek related content) is absolutely raving about it and talking about it destroying OpenAI (random YouTube thumbnails, most comments in this thread, even CNBC headlines). If DeepSeek's claims are accurate, then they themselves will be obsolete within a year, because the cost to develop models like this has dropped dramatically. There are going to be a lot of teams with a lot of hardware resources with a lot of motivation to reproduce and iterate from here.
  - tokioyoyo 2y ago
    Basically engineers are rejoicing, some VC connected C-levels are saying “nah, CCP helped them”. It’ll be fun if DS team gets proven right. Everyone will be back to the drawing board. It’s making a bit of news within China as well, as Baidu, Tencent, Bytedance are also spending a lotta money for AI training.
  - oefrha 2y ago
    > If DeepSeek's claims are accurate, then they themselves will be obsolete within a year, because the cost to develop models like this has dropped dramatically. There are going to be a lot of teams with a lot of hardware resources with a lot of motivation to reproduce and iterate from here. That would be an amazing outcome. For a while I was seriously worried about the possibility that if the trend of way more compute -> more AI breakthroughs continued, eventually AGI would be attained and exclusively controlled by a few people like Sam Altman who have trillions of $$$ to spend, and we’d all be replaced and live on whatever Sam-approved allowance.
  - RevEng 2y ago
    I have to imagine that they expect this. They published how they did it and they published the weights. The only thing they didn't publish was the training data, but that's typical of most open weights models. If they had wanted to win market cap they wouldn't have given away their recipe. They could be benefiting in many other ways.
spaceman_2020 2y ago
I find that this model feels more human, purely because of the reasoning style (first person). In its reasoning text, it comes across as a neurotic, eager to please smart “person”, which is hard not to anthropomorphise
whimsicalism 2y ago
openai has better models in the bank so short term they will release o3-derived models
InkCanon 2y ago
DeepSeek really is taking out OpenAI at the knees. It's shocking that the first direct peer competition to OpenAI is also doing it for an order of magnitude less as a side project.
- dutchbookmaker 2y ago
  I just tried DeepSeek for the first time and immediately canceled my OpenAI subscription. Seeing the chain of thought is now just mandatory for me after one prompt. That is absolutely incredible in terms of my own understanding of the question I asked. Even the chat UI feels better and less clunky. Now picture 20 years from now when the Chinese companies have access to digital Yuan transaction data along with all the Chinese video surveillance data. At some point, I don't see how US Companies can possibly compete in this space. This is the first time I am actually worried we might really bankrupt the country trying to keep up with a race we can not possibly win.
  - saturn8601 2y ago
    I will probably sound like an idiot for saying this but I tested ChatGpt-o1 model against DeepSeek and came away not blown away. It seems like its comparable to OpenAI 4o but many here make it seems like it has eclipsed anything OpenAI has put out? I asked it a simple question about the music from a 90s movie I liked as a child. Specifically to find the song that plays during a certain scene. The answer is a little tricky because in the official soundtrack the song is actually part of a larger arrangement and the song only starts playing X minutes into that specific track on the soundtrack album. DeepSeek completely hallucinated a nonsense answer making up a song that didn't even exist in the movie or soundtrack and o1 got me more or less to the answer(it was 99% correct in that it got the right track but only somewhat close to the actual start time: it was off by 15 seconds). Furthermore, the chain of thought of DeepSeek was impressive...in showing me how it it hallucinated but the chain of thought in o1 also led me to a pretty good thought process on how it derived the song I was looking for(and also taught me how a style of song called a "stinger" can be used to convey a sudden change in tone in the movie). Maybe its like how Apple complains when users don't use their products right, im not using it right with these nonsense requests. :D Both results tell me that DeepSeek needs more refinement and that OpenAI still cannot be trusted to fully replace a human because the answer still needed verification and correction despite being generally right.
audunw 2y ago
Does DeepSeek own enough compute power to actually leverage the higher efficiency of this model? Doesn’t help if it’s cheaper on paper in small scale, if you physically don’t have the capacity to sell it as a service on a large scale. By the time they do have the scale, don’t you think OpenAI will have a new generation of models that are just as efficient? Being the best model is no moat for any company. It wasn’t for OpenAi (and they know that very well), and it’s not for Deepseek either. So how will Deepseek stay relevant when another model inevitably surpasses them?

by msp26 2y ago

tokioyoyo 2y ago

From my casual read, right now everyone is on reputation tarnishing tirade, like spamming “Chinese stealing data! Definitely lying about everything! API can’t be this cheap!”. If that doesn’t go through well, I’m assuming lobbyism will start for import controls, which is very stupid. I have no idea how they can recover from it, if DeepSeek’s product is what they’re advertising.

itsoktocry 2y ago
So you're saying that this is the end of OpenAI? Somehow I doubt it.
- tokioyoyo 2y ago
  Hah I agree, they will find a way. In the end, the big winners will be the ones who find use cases other than a general chatbot. Or AGI, I guess.
- rkozik1989 2y ago
  If they can offer enterprise-level support for everything they're in a prime position to be the Oracle of AI. In the sense that open-source programming languages can out preform Java in certain instances, but they choose Oracle because they can just pick a phone and the person on the other can solve any issue they have. DeepSeek without a for-profit model just wont be able to offer such a service.
creato 2y ago
Funny, everything I see (not actively looking for DeepSeek related content) is absolutely raving about it and talking about it destroying OpenAI (random YouTube thumbnails, most comments in this thread, even CNBC headlines). If DeepSeek's claims are accurate, then they themselves will be obsolete within a year, because the cost to develop models like this has dropped dramatically. There are going to be a lot of teams with a lot of hardware resources with a lot of motivation to reproduce and iterate from here.
- tokioyoyo 2y ago
  Basically engineers are rejoicing, some VC connected C-levels are saying “nah, CCP helped them”. It’ll be fun if DS team gets proven right. Everyone will be back to the drawing board. It’s making a bit of news within China as well, as Baidu, Tencent, Bytedance are also spending a lotta money for AI training.
- oefrha 2y ago
  > If DeepSeek's claims are accurate, then they themselves will be obsolete within a year, because the cost to develop models like this has dropped dramatically. There are going to be a lot of teams with a lot of hardware resources with a lot of motivation to reproduce and iterate from here. That would be an amazing outcome. For a while I was seriously worried about the possibility that if the trend of way more compute -> more AI breakthroughs continued, eventually AGI would be attained and exclusively controlled by a few people like Sam Altman who have trillions of $$$ to spend, and we’d all be replaced and live on whatever Sam-approved allowance.
- RevEng 2y ago
  I have to imagine that they expect this. They published how they did it and they published the weights. The only thing they didn't publish was the training data, but that's typical of most open weights models. If they had wanted to win market cap they wouldn't have given away their recipe. They could be benefiting in many other ways.

spaceman_2020 2y ago

I find that this model feels more human, purely because of the reasoning style (first person). In its reasoning text, it comes across as a neurotic, eager to please smart “person”, which is hard not to anthropomorphise

whimsicalism 2y ago

openai has better models in the bank so short term they will release o3-derived models

InkCanon 2y ago

DeepSeek really is taking out OpenAI at the knees. It's shocking that the first direct peer competition to OpenAI is also doing it for an order of magnitude less as a side project.

dutchbookmaker 2y ago
I just tried DeepSeek for the first time and immediately canceled my OpenAI subscription. Seeing the chain of thought is now just mandatory for me after one prompt. That is absolutely incredible in terms of my own understanding of the question I asked. Even the chat UI feels better and less clunky. Now picture 20 years from now when the Chinese companies have access to digital Yuan transaction data along with all the Chinese video surveillance data. At some point, I don't see how US Companies can possibly compete in this space. This is the first time I am actually worried we might really bankrupt the country trying to keep up with a race we can not possibly win.
- saturn8601 2y ago
  I will probably sound like an idiot for saying this but I tested ChatGpt-o1 model against DeepSeek and came away not blown away. It seems like its comparable to OpenAI 4o but many here make it seems like it has eclipsed anything OpenAI has put out? I asked it a simple question about the music from a 90s movie I liked as a child. Specifically to find the song that plays during a certain scene. The answer is a little tricky because in the official soundtrack the song is actually part of a larger arrangement and the song only starts playing X minutes into that specific track on the soundtrack album. DeepSeek completely hallucinated a nonsense answer making up a song that didn't even exist in the movie or soundtrack and o1 got me more or less to the answer(it was 99% correct in that it got the right track but only somewhat close to the actual start time: it was off by 15 seconds). Furthermore, the chain of thought of DeepSeek was impressive...in showing me how it it hallucinated but the chain of thought in o1 also led me to a pretty good thought process on how it derived the song I was looking for(and also taught me how a style of song called a "stinger" can be used to convey a sudden change in tone in the movie). Maybe its like how Apple complains when users don't use their products right, im not using it right with these nonsense requests. :D Both results tell me that DeepSeek needs more refinement and that OpenAI still cannot be trusted to fully replace a human because the answer still needed verification and correction despite being generally right.

audunw 2y ago

Does DeepSeek own enough compute power to actually leverage the higher efficiency of this model? Doesn’t help if it’s cheaper on paper in small scale, if you physically don’t have the capacity to sell it as a service on a large scale. By the time they do have the scale, don’t you think OpenAI will have a new generation of models that are just as efficient? Being the best model is no moat for any company. It wasn’t for OpenAi (and they know that very well), and it’s not for Deepseek either. So how will Deepseek stay relevant when another model inevitably surpasses them?