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Subtitle: A former USDS employee called the repurposing of the Digital Service into DOGE an “A+ bureaucratic jiujitsu move.” It will give Musk and his associate

by mmooss 2y ago

Subtitle: A former USDS employee called the repurposing of the Digital Service into DOGE an “A+ bureaucratic jiujitsu move.” It will give Musk and his associates access to unclassified data in every government agency. Later it says: The Service’s mandate allows it the wide-ranging ability to enter any government agency and access its software or technical systems with the goal of helping to streamline or reform existing systems. That doesn't necessarily mean you can access data, though the first quote says they can.

Ccecil 2y ago
I am going to venture a guess... They have access to all the data. Streamline/reform existing systems means train AI on the data.
- janice1999 2y ago
  "Reform" means identifying and eliminating political enemies. No need for the loyalty pledges Project 2025 outlines, just use AI on all employees messages, emails, tax returns etc they will have access to.
andrewxdiamond 2y ago
> access to unclassified data in every government agency. Is this even meaningful? We have the FoIA, can’t any company acquire unclassified data any time they want? I suppose it’s an ease-of-access thing, but for a large corp it seems you would be constantly data mining the government with FoIA requests.
- prpl 2y ago
  Imagine a pharmacy. Some things are over the counter and others behind the counter. It’s the difference between being a customer and working behind the counter
- mmooss 2y ago
  > I suppose it’s an ease-of-access thing In a sense, that is much of what computers are - ease of access. What's the difference between millions of of paper documents in a warehouse, and a live database with the same information instantly accessible, processable, etc.? I suppose it's just 'ease of access'. But it is all the difference in the world. One does not compare to the other. FOIA requests - which take paperwork, must specify the thing requested, and sometimes years to resolve - don't compare to live access to the databases and applications and personnel.
- jfengel 2y ago
  There's a lot that you can't get via FOIA. You can't just go on a fishing expedition. A lot of stuff is unclassified but personal, and restricted. This potentially gives you access to everything. Such access is supposed to be about the system itself and not the data within (just like your sysadmin can theoretically look at your files but promised not to). But hey, who's watching, and to whom would they complain?
- darth_avocado 2y ago
  Having actually talked to people who have filed FoIA requests, it’s actually near impossible to get things from the government if they don’t want to share it with you. First the requests have to be narrow and specific. You can’t just be “give me everything you have on xyz”. Then they can very much drag on the process forever by going back and forth on how narrow the specifics need to be. Then there’s the issue of a wide range of documents that are not covered under FoIA. And then finally even if you manage to request the documents correctly and they are covered under FoIA, sometimes they simply don’t have them. This is amazingly common when FoIA activists try to get budget and spending related documents.
  - greyface- 2y ago
    They can also simply ignore your request, and force you to take them to court in order to get a response. There's little downside in doing this, especially against small requestors. This happens with some regularity, and is known as "constructive denial".
jfengel 2y ago
It would come down to the individual departments. They demand access. Some departments give it up. Others say no. It goes over to the inspector general of the department, who may end up consulting with the Attorney General, who will surely approve. If that doesn't work, they go to the courts to resolve. That's not supposed to ever happen, but it's the rules for when one department of the government is fighting another. So it's not as easy as the article makes it sound. But it's either a significant blow to the Deep State or a pogrom of the civil service, depending on your point of view.
- mmooss 2y ago
  Trump just fired about a dozen inspectors general.
- nradov 2y ago
  The administration recently terminated several inspectors general. This may allow them to appoint replacements who will cooperate with DOGE. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-federal-inspectors-general-fired/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-federal-inspectors-genera...

by mmooss 2y ago

Ccecil 2y ago

I am going to venture a guess... They have access to all the data. Streamline/reform existing systems means train AI on the data.

janice1999 2y ago
"Reform" means identifying and eliminating political enemies. No need for the loyalty pledges Project 2025 outlines, just use AI on all employees messages, emails, tax returns etc they will have access to.

andrewxdiamond 2y ago

> access to unclassified data in every government agency. Is this even meaningful? We have the FoIA, can’t any company acquire unclassified data any time they want? I suppose it’s an ease-of-access thing, but for a large corp it seems you would be constantly data mining the government with FoIA requests.

prpl 2y ago
Imagine a pharmacy. Some things are over the counter and others behind the counter. It’s the difference between being a customer and working behind the counter
mmooss 2y ago
> I suppose it’s an ease-of-access thing In a sense, that is much of what computers are - ease of access. What's the difference between millions of of paper documents in a warehouse, and a live database with the same information instantly accessible, processable, etc.? I suppose it's just 'ease of access'. But it is all the difference in the world. One does not compare to the other. FOIA requests - which take paperwork, must specify the thing requested, and sometimes years to resolve - don't compare to live access to the databases and applications and personnel.
jfengel 2y ago
There's a lot that you can't get via FOIA. You can't just go on a fishing expedition. A lot of stuff is unclassified but personal, and restricted. This potentially gives you access to everything. Such access is supposed to be about the system itself and not the data within (just like your sysadmin can theoretically look at your files but promised not to). But hey, who's watching, and to whom would they complain?
darth_avocado 2y ago
Having actually talked to people who have filed FoIA requests, it’s actually near impossible to get things from the government if they don’t want to share it with you. First the requests have to be narrow and specific. You can’t just be “give me everything you have on xyz”. Then they can very much drag on the process forever by going back and forth on how narrow the specifics need to be. Then there’s the issue of a wide range of documents that are not covered under FoIA. And then finally even if you manage to request the documents correctly and they are covered under FoIA, sometimes they simply don’t have them. This is amazingly common when FoIA activists try to get budget and spending related documents.
- greyface- 2y ago
  They can also simply ignore your request, and force you to take them to court in order to get a response. There's little downside in doing this, especially against small requestors. This happens with some regularity, and is known as "constructive denial".

jfengel 2y ago

It would come down to the individual departments. They demand access. Some departments give it up. Others say no. It goes over to the inspector general of the department, who may end up consulting with the Attorney General, who will surely approve. If that doesn't work, they go to the courts to resolve. That's not supposed to ever happen, but it's the rules for when one department of the government is fighting another. So it's not as easy as the article makes it sound. But it's either a significant blow to the Deep State or a pogrom of the civil service, depending on your point of view.

mmooss 2y ago
Trump just fired about a dozen inspectors general.
nradov 2y ago
The administration recently terminated several inspectors general. This may allow them to appoint replacements who will cooperate with DOGE. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-federal-inspectors-general-fired/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-federal-inspectors-genera...