6 ms·
DOGE Takeover of USDS Allows Them to Surveil the US Government from the Inside
- Mr_Blacky 2y ago[flagged]
- austin-cheney 2y agoFrom the article it looks like none of these games cover SIPR or JWICS, so at least there's that.
- milkglass 2y agohttps://archive.ph/CpBIu https://archive.ph/CpBIu
- mmooss 2y agoSubtitle: A former USDS employee called the repurposing of the Digital Service into DOGE an “A+ bureaucratic jiujitsu move.” It will give Musk and his associates access to unclassified data in every government agency. Later it says: The Service’s mandate allows it the wide-ranging ability to enter any government agency and access its software or technical systems with the goal of helping to streamline or reform existing systems. That doesn't necessarily mean you can access data, though the first quote says they can.
- Ccecil 2y agoI am going to venture a guess... They have access to all the data. Streamline/reform existing systems means train AI on the data.
- janice1999 2y ago"Reform" means identifying and eliminating political enemies. No need for the loyalty pledges Project 2025 outlines, just use AI on all employees messages, emails, tax returns etc they will have access to.
- andrewxdiamond 2y ago> access to unclassified data in every government agency. Is this even meaningful? We have the FoIA, can’t any company acquire unclassified data any time they want? I suppose it’s an ease-of-access thing, but for a large corp it seems you would be constantly data mining the government with FoIA requests.
- prpl 2y agoImagine a pharmacy. Some things are over the counter and others behind the counter. It’s the difference between being a customer and working behind the counter
- mmooss 2y ago> I suppose it’s an ease-of-access thing In a sense, that is much of what computers are - ease of access. What's the difference between millions of of paper documents in a warehouse, and a live database with the same information instantly accessible, processable, etc.? I suppose it's just 'ease of access'. But it is all the difference in the world. One does not compare to the other. FOIA requests - which take paperwork, must specify the thing requested, and sometimes years to resolve - don't compare to live access to the databases and applications and personnel.
- jfengel 2y agoThere's a lot that you can't get via FOIA. You can't just go on a fishing expedition. A lot of stuff is unclassified but personal, and restricted. This potentially gives you access to everything. Such access is supposed to be about the system itself and not the data within (just like your sysadmin can theoretically look at your files but promised not to). But hey, who's watching, and to whom would they complain?
- darth_avocado 2y agoHaving actually talked to people who have filed FoIA requests, it’s actually near impossible to get things from the government if they don’t want to share it with you. First the requests have to be narrow and specific. You can’t just be “give me everything you have on xyz”. Then they can very much drag on the process forever by going back and forth on how narrow the specifics need to be. Then there’s the issue of a wide range of documents that are not covered under FoIA. And then finally even if you manage to request the documents correctly and they are covered under FoIA, sometimes they simply don’t have them. This is amazingly common when FoIA activists try to get budget and spending related documents.
- jfengel 2y agoIt would come down to the individual departments. They demand access. Some departments give it up. Others say no. It goes over to the inspector general of the department, who may end up consulting with the Attorney General, who will surely approve. If that doesn't work, they go to the courts to resolve. That's not supposed to ever happen, but it's the rules for when one department of the government is fighting another. So it's not as easy as the article makes it sound. But it's either a significant blow to the Deep State or a pogrom of the civil service, depending on your point of view.
- mmooss 2y agoTrump just fired about a dozen inspectors general.
- nradov 2y agoThe administration recently terminated several inspectors general. This may allow them to appoint replacements who will cooperate with DOGE. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-federal-inspectors-general-fired/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-federal-inspectors-genera...
- colinbartlett 2y agoSo the US Digital Service is no more? What happens to all its engineers and developers?
- zaroth 2y ago[flagged]
- gjsman-1000 2y ago[flagged]
- ben_w 2y ago> Mandate of God Which god? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammon
- Volundr 2y ago> The engineers and developers just got the green light for every good idea they can come up with. Where in the world is this idea coming from? What part of their new mandate makes you think engineers and developers suddenly have a blank check to do whatever they want?
- gota 2y ago> How is that not the coolest plot line? Potentially- when making mistakes or overstepping boundaries affect and in very real terms ruin actual peoples' lives
- gjsman-1000 2y agoNobody counts how many lives bureaucrats have also ruined. The IRS alone…
- scarface_74 2y agoYou mean by collecting taxes?
- zaroth 2y ago> The Service’s mandate allows it the wide-ranging ability to enter any government agency and access its software or technical systems with the goal of helping to streamline or reform existing systems. That’s actually cool they have that ability. I’ve always been a huge fan of USDS, I think they just got massively supercharged, and look forward to watching them achieve this mission.
- bigstrat2003 2y agoThe article frames this like a bad thing but it seems perfectly reasonable. The DOGE is, effectively, a group of auditors. Of course they're going to need to have access to information on the organizations they are auditing. Honestly this comes across as the author reaching for an excuse to make it sound bad because they don't like Trump and/or the DOGE.
- mmooss 2y ago> The DOGE is, effectively, a group of auditors. That's a pretty big leap. What is it based on? The OP article says the new USDS's program seems designed to identify and weed out political opponents.
- Ithildin 2y agoNot realizing the implications of an oligarch who bought his way into the federal government with apparent conflicts of interest is equally reaching and dogmatic. This article asks the right questions. We should be concerned about this and keep a watchful eye on it.
- enragedcacti 2y ago> Of course they're going to need to have access to information on the organizations they are auditing. And Criminal conspiracy is just making plans with friends. The details matter and the details are that DOGE is structured for maximum access/capability and minimum oversight from congress, other agencies, and the public.
- medhir 2y agoI cannot believe “the US DOGE service” is a combination of words I have to read. A meme coin representing the entirety of our government’s digital presence? Feels very unserious.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- gjsman-1000 2y ago[flagged]
- mgiampapa 2y agoAttributing a NRO mission patch to the Obama Administration is quite a bit of a stretch. There is a long tradition of mission patches for all sorts of things in the military and they are generally not dictated from the top down.
- braiamp 2y agoYeah, it was more like a joke of the team, rather than something serious with wide implications.
- JumpCrisscross 2y agoThe point of the joke being to prompt hot takes like [1]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42823790 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42823790
- TomK32 2y agojoke's on you, as the Wikipedia article states it's an engineering in-joke. Of course, someone still had to pick it up and someone else had to approve it, but the idea for it still came from the bottom. The ODNI gave a more mundane explanation for the patch design in an internal magazine, stating that it originated from an engineering in-joke regarding a piece of cabling called an "octopus harness" that caused problems during testing for the satellite, leading the engineering team to joke that "the octopus harness had taken over the world."
- throwaway48476 2y agoDoes the unclassified part of the government have secrets? If so, why?
- pclmulqdq 2y agoThey legally don't have secrets but they practically do have secrets.
- throwaway48476 2y agoMaybe its time for the government to be public by default.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> Maybe its time for the government to be public by default Have you filed a FOIA request?
- igor47 2y agoThanks for being a voice of sanity in this insane thread
- pclmulqdq 2y agoI have seen many FOIA requests get answered with heavy redactions and otherwise partial answers. For "public by default," lots of arms of the government don't see transparency as something they are supposed to do, and more as an imposition. Other parts of the government are good at responding to FOIA requests, but it's generally inversely proportional to the value of the information.
- a12k 2y agoBecause the social security numbers, health records, or geographic details of people who have interacted with the government shouldn’t be open to the general public, for one.
- firesteelrain 2y ago[flagged]
- mmooss 2y agoYou assume that this isn't reasonable or logical, apparently because it may imply bad things about Trump. There's nothing about Trump (or really anyone) that makes bad things unreasonable or illogical.
- grey-area 2y agoTrump supporters are going to go through a few things these next four years. I wonder if you will tire of carrying water for him or will do it to the end, even when he refuses to step down and demands a mandate for life.
- chrisco255 2y ago[flagged]
- grey-area 2y agoSure I'll happily do that when he peacefully steps down, but that's not what he did last time, and that's not what he has said he plans to do. He openly admires dictators. Let's wait and see if he does what he thinks he should (try to remain president for life). I hope you wouldn't support it if he did try to extend his term, would you? I'm genuinely interested to hear you answer that - where is the line for you that he should not cross? https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/may/19/trump-nra-convention-dallas https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/may/19/trum... https://www.reuters.com/article/world/trump-praises-chinese-president-extending-tenure-for-life-idUSKCN1GG03P/ https://www.reuters.com/article/world/trump-praises-chinese-... What he had to say about the Chinese dictator Xi: "He's now president for life, president for life. And he's great," Trump said, "And look, he was able to do that. I think it's great. Maybe we'll have to give that a shot someday," Trump said to cheers and applause from supporters. And oh look, I didn't even know about this attempt by a sycophant in congress to give him what he wants 3 days into his second term: https://www.cnbc.com/2025/01/23/trump-third-term-amendment-constitution-ogles.html https://www.cnbc.com/2025/01/23/trump-third-term-amendment-c...
- layer8 2y agoAnd so the real deep state begins. ;)
- danju 2y ago[dead]
- StarterPro 2y ago[flagged]
- Mr_Blacky 2y agoI don't understand How can you put all politics aside in a political news made against trump.
- StarterPro 2y agoBecause I'm not talking about left or right. I'm talking about corruption. He and his people are corrupt. You can be a republican who voted for him, and now realize he lied. He promised these people the world only to get in day one and say "sucks to suck".
- mmooss 2y ago> He and his people are corrupt. You can be a republican who voted for him, and now realize he lied. Why do you think GOP voters didn't realize Trump was corrupt? Obviously they knew and voted for him anyway. The question is, why? Why did they abandon all common sense and good sense?
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> The question is, why? Why did they abandon all common sense and good sense? Biden's pardoning of his son and pre-emptive pardoning of his family sets a very low bar for corruption. Given the stakes, as in 2016, a lot of voters didn't see a difference. While I thought I did in November, I don't think I can say I do now.
- mmooss 2y ago> Biden's pardoning of his son and pre-emptive pardoning of his family sets a very low bar for corruption. I'm sure you know the reasons that's not comparable - meaning, I'm not going to make some pedantic argument about it. One bad event doesn't define everything. How many bad events are connected to Trump? Everyone who is not a saint is equally a sinner? - That's very egalitarian of you, but maybe too much so in this case. :) I agree it was corrupt and it made me angry, though he did have an argument: He said Trump would target his son corruptly. That's a real possibility: Trump has a long track record of such things and of a desire to do more; he openly said he would do it if elected. I think the GOP did corruptly attack Hunter Biden because he is the President's son - IMHO it's attacking family members of enemies; Hunter seems to have broken laws, but many do without the massive investigations by Congress and DoJ, news coverage, etc. And now Trump has directed the attorney general to investigate the Biden administration.
- clot27 2y agoAmerica is cooked
- disqard 2y agoIt was already on the "sous-vide" setting for the past few years, now it's been set to "broil" overnight.
- kccoder 2y agoI’m still baffled that MORE people voted for this sad, sick, small excuse of a man as president this time around. Very disappointed in my fellow Americans who are either too hateful, willfully ignorant, or ambivalent to let this happen to all of us. Shameful.
- danju 2y ago[dead]
- sneak 2y agoThis is the endgame of the “lesser of two evils” game (for some people), sadly. I don’t think anyone on the planet can claim the democrats didn’t drop the ball totally and at every possible juncture. The sibling dead comment is right: we need ranked choice voting. I doubt it will ever happen though because the two party system (really a one party corporate interest system) would be massively disadvantaged as a result and will fight tooth and nail to prevent it from getting implemented.
- Mr_Blacky 2y ago[flagged]
- trentnix 2y agoSo they’ll have access to everything we should already have access to. What’s the problem, then? Considering the government uses classification far too flippantly as it is, they still won’t have access to much.
- throw0101d 2y agoOf course who is watching things is important, as a bunch of independent auditors just got fired: "Trump uses mass firing to remove [17] inspectors general at a series of agencies": * https://www.npr.org/2025/01/25/g-s1-44771/trump-fires-inspectors-general https://www.npr.org/2025/01/25/g-s1-44771/trump-fires-inspec...
- thiht 2y agoI'm of the opinion that articles relaying how the US government is sinking FAST into a dictatorship should not get flagged again and again. But what do I know, maybe HN is just more pro-Trump than I imagine.
- archagon 2y agoWhat do you expect when the ideal Silicon Valley corporation is structured as a dictatorship? People have been conditioned by the industry to accept authoritarianism in their lives and work, and this is the end result.
- nine_k 2y agoIt depends on whether you see Apple or Valve as an ideal.
- idop 2y agoIt's Musk, not Trump. Musk can do no wrong in the eyes of 20 year old programmers who believe a tablet on wheels is going to make them rich one day.
- scarecrowbob 2y agoIME, Trump support on HN probably follows the general population: 50/50 among folks who care to vote, who knows among folks who have far less to lose. My feeling is that people here generally assume that the bad things will always happen to other folks, so that these articles appear as divisive and irrelevant. It's one of the great Gell-Mann amneisia-style ironies that folks here are generally very understanding of why online privacy doesn't work when folks adopt "privacy doesn't matter if you have nothing to hide"- these same folks immediately fail to understand that if the government can oppress trans/queer/bipoc/native/women/etc folks or put down labor, then the same group will exert its power over them. It doesn't help that these same folks probably don't even see state oppression as state oppression, as it just shows up as "what normal, Real humans do". I suppose position might not be incorrect for folks who are sufficiently privileged and very bought into the idea that they live at the historically necessary end of history. After all, their ancestors committed pretty horrible crimes for which they have never felt one bit of blow back. So they might simply be right that the boot will always be on other folks faces, forever. I doubt it (I don't think that the boot on their faces is a thing that they can see at such close proxemity), but they also think I'm an idiot and I'm not in an impartial place where I could judge which of us is right.
- jaybrendansmith 2y agoI used to like Musk quite a bit. Now that he has shown us his true stripes with his Nazi salute, I find the man abhorrent. He is a disgrace and an embarrassment. He should probably be deported or jailed, he does not belong in a free and just country. I doubt very few of us would be tolerant of Nazis and Fascists, and indeed we should be completely intolerant of Musk.
- insane_dreamer 2y agoThis article is highly tech relevant and should not be flagged.