4 ms·

The subway is the big expensive investment. In theory, businesses and housing etc would develop around the stations. Like how suburbs develop around train stati

The subway is the big expensive investment. In theory, businesses and housing etc would develop around the stations. Like how suburbs develop around train stations.

ghaff 2y ago
In theory. The commuter rail I sometimes take follows an old rail right of way. Some of the stations are in fairly developed areas. But some of those, like Concord, presumably predate even the original rail. And a lot of the towns are pretty spread out. You can't walk to much until you get to the last two stops in the city proper.
- jonahrd 2y ago
  This is because the T is not a "real" transit system in the way that it's simply not designed to move enough people fast enough to compete with cars.
  - ghaff 2y ago
    Well, if I’m going into the city 9 to 5ish I’ll usually take commuter rail because it’s less painful even if it takes as long as driving. But I do need to drive to and park at the nearby commuter rail station.
- macNchz 2y ago
  I imagine that at least one factor there is that building up is prohibited by zoning—a super brief glance at Concord's zoning map & code it looks like the only kind of residential buildings you can build anywhere without special permission are single-family. Now there are surely people living there who would argue that this zoning has protected the shape and nature of the town they that they prefer, but the flip side of that coin is that, at $1.4m, a median home in Concord costs more than 3x that of the country overall.
  - ghaff 2y ago
    There's probably some truth in that. On the other hand, Concord is a pretty far-flung suburb; you're probably over 30 minutes to get to Cambridge without heavy traffic. I believe the prison out there is closed now but don't know what the plans are for the land.
    - macNchz 2y ago
      Sure, I wouldn't imagine it'd turn into a cluster of skyscrapers if the restrictions were not there, but I would imagine there might be some small apartment buildings near the train station. New Jersey has had some impressive housing changes happen by opening areas near transit to development in not-dissimilar environments.
      - ghaff 2y ago
        Apparently, the governor is interested in using it for housing development but I'm sure that will be tied up in the courts for years--especially with it being Concord.
llamaimperative 2y ago
And then landowners who were “smart” enough to own land where this ends up going in get to reap all the financial upside, instead of the public which actually invested in that infrastructure. Just imagine if the public could capture the (financial) upside it produces, then it could apply that money to do the same thing down the road, then do the same thing again down the road further. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_George_theorem?wprov=sfti1# https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_George_theorem?wprov=sft...
- showerst 2y ago
  A version of this is common now in the US through Tax Increment Financing. https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ipd/value_capture/defined/tax_increment_financing.aspx https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ipd/value_capture/defined/tax_incre...
  - lotsofpulp 2y ago
    I don’t see how that is a version of what llamaimperative posts. If anything, TIF increases rewards for landowners who do nothing or otherwise underutilize land. Taxing the product of work to make a piece of land beneficial for society is amazingly backwards. The proper direction to go in is marginal land value tax rates, with increasing penalties the longer a spaces remains unused.
- icegreentea2 2y ago
  In some countries the transit companies (public or private) also become the landowners of the adjacent areas - this would be the "rail plus property" model. In fact, the rail plus property model allows the rail operate to better capture their added value, so it applies even in "private" scenarios. The most famous example would be Tokyo. The goal shouldn't be for the public to be able to reap direct financial benefits from the induced activity around transit hubs, the goal should be to firstly to incentivize and maintain affordable, high quality, sustainable transit, secondly to provide more and better economic opportunities.
  - shipp02 2y ago

The subway is the big expensive investment. In theory, businesses and housing etc would develop around the stations. Like how suburbs develop around train stations.

ghaff 2y ago

In theory. The commuter rail I sometimes take follows an old rail right of way. Some of the stations are in fairly developed areas. But some of those, like Concord, presumably predate even the original rail. And a lot of the towns are pretty spread out. You can't walk to much until you get to the last two stops in the city proper.

jonahrd 2y ago
This is because the T is not a "real" transit system in the way that it's simply not designed to move enough people fast enough to compete with cars.
- ghaff 2y ago
  Well, if I’m going into the city 9 to 5ish I’ll usually take commuter rail because it’s less painful even if it takes as long as driving. But I do need to drive to and park at the nearby commuter rail station.
macNchz 2y ago
I imagine that at least one factor there is that building up is prohibited by zoning—a super brief glance at Concord's zoning map & code it looks like the only kind of residential buildings you can build anywhere without special permission are single-family. Now there are surely people living there who would argue that this zoning has protected the shape and nature of the town they that they prefer, but the flip side of that coin is that, at $1.4m, a median home in Concord costs more than 3x that of the country overall.
- ghaff 2y ago
  There's probably some truth in that. On the other hand, Concord is a pretty far-flung suburb; you're probably over 30 minutes to get to Cambridge without heavy traffic. I believe the prison out there is closed now but don't know what the plans are for the land.
  - macNchz 2y ago
    Sure, I wouldn't imagine it'd turn into a cluster of skyscrapers if the restrictions were not there, but I would imagine there might be some small apartment buildings near the train station. New Jersey has had some impressive housing changes happen by opening areas near transit to development in not-dissimilar environments.
    - ghaff 2y ago
      Apparently, the governor is interested in using it for housing development but I'm sure that will be tied up in the courts for years--especially with it being Concord.

llamaimperative 2y ago

And then landowners who were “smart” enough to own land where this ends up going in get to reap all the financial upside, instead of the public which actually invested in that infrastructure. Just imagine if the public could capture the (financial) upside it produces, then it could apply that money to do the same thing down the road, then do the same thing again down the road further. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_George_theorem?wprov=sfti1# https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_George_theorem?wprov=sft...

showerst 2y ago
A version of this is common now in the US through Tax Increment Financing. https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ipd/value_capture/defined/tax_increment_financing.aspx https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ipd/value_capture/defined/tax_incre...
- lotsofpulp 2y ago
  I don’t see how that is a version of what llamaimperative posts. If anything, TIF increases rewards for landowners who do nothing or otherwise underutilize land. Taxing the product of work to make a piece of land beneficial for society is amazingly backwards. The proper direction to go in is marginal land value tax rates, with increasing penalties the longer a spaces remains unused.
icegreentea2 2y ago
In some countries the transit companies (public or private) also become the landowners of the adjacent areas - this would be the "rail plus property" model. In fact, the rail plus property model allows the rail operate to better capture their added value, so it applies even in "private" scenarios. The most famous example would be Tokyo. The goal shouldn't be for the public to be able to reap direct financial benefits from the induced activity around transit hubs, the goal should be to firstly to incentivize and maintain affordable, high quality, sustainable transit, secondly to provide more and better economic opportunities.
- shipp02 2y ago