9 ms·

The electric Caltrain is so wonderful. It’s way quieter, the cars have nicer interiors, and it is running faster and more frequently than before. Between this,

by blintz 2y ago

The electric Caltrain is so wonderful. It’s way quieter, the cars have nicer interiors, and it is running faster and more frequently than before. Between this, the new BART cars (also much quieter!), and Muni hitting a reliability & satisfaction records, there’s really a transit renaissance going on in the Bay Area. I really hope we can keep this going!

ninetyninenine 2y ago
Haha. Doubtful. In your lifetime you won't see any transit system in the bay area that approaches anything remotely close to what you see in places like Tokyo or NYC. I get that there's improvement but like it's still rather pathetic compared to almost everywhere else across the pond.
- lswainemoore 2y ago
  Why so negative? Given that the served population is conservatively a quarter of either of those areas, doesn't seem like a fair comparison. More to the point, I've been favorably impressed with the transit options since moving here, and in terms of reliability it's been better than NYC, though obviously there are fewer trains/branches. I'd love to see BART open later, like NYC, but even Tokyo trains stop at midnight.
  - astrange 2y ago
    NYC is more or less the only system in the world that runs all night like that. It makes it very hard to do maintenance.
    - frosted-flakes 2y ago
      And NYC can do that because most of it's lines have three or four tracks.
  - ninetyninenine 2y ago
    It's fair. NYC is 8.8 million, bay area is 7 million. Tokyo is about double that. Not being negative. Being realistic. It's unfortunate that being realistic often is negative. Transit here is garbage. You either luck out and live and work near transit or you're like most people and have to drive. A couple million in energy savings doesn't mean anything compared to the amount wasted by cars.
    - verteu 2y ago
      Surely the relevant metric is population density?
      - ninetyninenine 2y ago
        You have the causal arrow backwards. A high density train network enables population density and high energy efficiency. At current population density all of our lives would improve if a network as dense as the tokyo metro appeared in the bay area over night.
    - lswainemoore 2y ago
      Those are not the right population metrics to compare. If you're talking full Bay Area, you might as well talk NYC metro area (MTA claims to serve 15.3 million [1]). Tokyo's even trickier, but I think 36 million [2] seems closer to right. It's probably not worth arguing about too much, because ultimately I agree with you that there's a lot more to be done to reduce car ridership. But pointing at those places and saying "copy them" misses a lot of structural differences. [1] https://mta.info/about https://mta.info/about [2] https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/0056b6a98b8b4a48869f822d2c4edbf4 https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/0056b6a98b8b4a48869f822...
- astrange 2y ago
  If you copy Japan policies you can get something much closer to Japan, it's not magic. (Transit oriented upzoning, no parking minimums, and businesses in the station building.)
  - ninetyninenine 2y ago
    If it's not magic why isn't it being done? That's the point. This news is rather pathetic strictly because a better scenario is NOT magic.
    - zeroonetwothree 2y ago
      Simple. Most people don’t want it.
      - ninetyninenine 2y ago
        They do. You're not being realistic. Almost everyone would like to have a choice between getting on a subway for super cheap or driving through traffic. You're saying they would rather have no choice between the two options? Come on. The Bay area (people) want top of the line transit, all of California wants it. It's similar to how Ethiopia wants to get out of poverty. Both places can't get what they want for similar reasons: incapability. Take a look at the high speed rail. Probably won't finish in both of our lifetimes. People want that thing, what's stopping it from happening is incompetence.
        Johnny555 2y ago
        They do. You're not being realistic. Almost everyone would like to have a choice between getting on a subway for super cheap or driving through traffic. You're saying they would rather have no choice between the two options? Come on Sure, everyone wants an easy commute where the train picks them up in front of their house and drops them off at the office, but they also want their house with yard in Walnut Creek. Or lacking that, their single family house in the Sunset. Sure some people would be happy in a high density city, but do enough people want it to make it worth building? As dense as downtown San Francisco is, it's still a long commute to the Easy Bay or Peninsula from the Sunset or Richmond. Driving is usually faster and more convenient.
- spike021 2y ago
  Tokyo metropolitan area is nothing like the SF Bay Area. It's extremely different and so is ridership. Also, if you check out smaller cities in Japan they don't always have as good public transit. Heck, even in Tokyo you can find neighborhoods where you still need to walk or maybe take a bus because train lines don't quite reach them.
infotainment 2y ago
Agreed largely, though IMO BART is holding the bay area back. Unlike Caltrain and Muni, BART management is completely incompetent and more focused on spending their money on random things than actually running their transit system. Fun fact: BART police has a large fleet of SUVs, with the highest vehicle-to-officer ratio in the bay area (if only there were some other way for them to get around!) Fun exercise: compare the cleanliness of a Muni Bus/LRV to a BART car (even a new one at the start of the day). There is a huge difference.
- insane_dreamer 2y ago
  > BART police why does a transit system need its own police force? Aren't municipal and county police enough?
  - hydrogen7800 2y ago
    That's a good question, any I have no idea of the answer, but the port authority of NY and NJ has it's own police. I always figured it was because it spanned jurisdictions, but perhaps there are other reasons
    - SoftTalker 2y ago
      Chicago has CTA police and the suburban rail system Metra has its own police also.
      - selectodude 2y ago
        CTA doesn’t have its own police. That’s just normal CPD.
        SoftTalker 2y ago
        Hm, maybe CPD has a CTA detail then? I thought there was (or used to be) a CTA police division that had their own uniforms, cars, etc. I seem to also remember a CHA police for the housing projects, but it's been a long time since I lived there.
pm90 2y ago
To unlock the true value of these systems the BA needs to be forced to increase density of their cities though. We need SF proper to look more like Manhattan.
- jmward01 2y ago
  It also needs a much bigger emphasis on transit oriented development. In Japan the best place to eat in town is often in the train station or within a few feet of it. In the US the stops are often some of the worst places like parking lots or run down parts of town. Rarely have I seen good shopping/dining/living integrated into BA, or even US in general, transit systems.
  - pm90 2y ago
    Agreed. Caltrain stops are… definitely not that. The SF stations are somewhat out of the way (although the planned extension would bring it all the way to the transit center). I do see a lot more residential units coming up near transit nodes, although its not nearly enough! The San Jose Caltrain is a prime exhibition of what you said: surrounded by parking lots and it feels quite deserted and creepy instead of being a bustling, thriving commercial area (although a few blocks near there is a nice commercial area with a brewery and many eateries, including a whole foods).
  - saagarjha 2y ago
    What do you mean? Subway in 4th and King is fire
  - wffurr 2y ago
    My office in Cambridge, Massachusetts is directly in a 12 story tower with ground floor retail directly on top of a transit station. TOD does exist, it’s just rare for whatever reason in NA. That said, there are lots of other stops in the area that are either overrun with parking, like you said, or are one story business districts with no housing. Lots left to do. I suspect the problem might be mismatched incentives. ISTR reading that some East Asian transit companies own and develop the parcels on and around their stations, which provides funding and drives ridership.
zer0zzz 2y ago
The new sfo terminal too
potato3732842 2y ago
> It’s way quieter, the cars have nicer interiors, and it is running faster and more frequently than before. Not that electric isn't a huge step up for all the usual reasons but most of that is just because it's new and hasn't been worn out yet.
- markerz 2y ago
  Electric does help with getting cars to run quieter and faster though. With the old diesel engines, they needed more headway because of slower cold start times so there's more frequency and can hit the speed limit faster. Electric engines have high torque and are naturally much quieter.
  - pm90 2y ago
    Yup not to mention that the fumes from diesel engines got into the cars so you tended to avoid the ones close to the engine. Its a HUGE qol improvement!
    - stevenwoo 2y ago
      Also makes waiting at either end, San Jose or San Francisco more pleasant with cleaner air to breathe instead of fumes if you are a little early.
      - saagarjha 2y ago
        San Jose unfortunately has the Gilroy commuter trains idling in the station :(
        arcticbull 2y ago
        For now. They're replacing them with battery-electric trains that can go past Tamien. Yeah, it should just have caternaries the whole way down but you know how rail is around here -- owned by Union Pacific, and the federal government prevents municipalities from exercising eminent domain to take control of railways.
blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
How is safety these days? The last time I was in a BART station, I had to intervene in an uncomfortable situation where a (possibly high) man was bothering a young woman. It felt surreal because everyone around hadn’t helped her at all and was just ignoring what was happening.
- tfehring 2y ago
  BART is better than it was but still bad. Caltrain is totally fine though.
ChuckMcM 2y ago
It has been great hasn't it?!? The difference between running every 30 minutes on weekends vs ever 2 hours is the difference between hopping on the train up to Redwood City for lunch with a friend and then back again. Versus one of us driving one way or the other. If they can electrify the San Jose to Gilroy segment that will be even better.
- saagarjha 2y ago
  I think they are running into issues with that because they don't own the rail lines, so they will probably go with batteries rather than overhead lines.
enos_feedler 2y ago
Im reading this from a train going from SFO to Milbrae! Y’all can thank me for the electricity later!!
ummonk 2y ago
Huh? The new BART cars sound as screechy as ever to me, much louder than the old diesel Caltrain, never mind the new electric Caltrain.
bagels 2y ago
Still loud as ever until they get rid of the horns.
- okdood64 2y ago
  People don't understand and respect public transportation (train in this context) in this country. There's a lot of dumbasses who will be on the tracks when and where they should not be. Hence we need those loud horns.
  - bagels 2y ago
    People have much easier access to roads, where many more deaths occur. We don't require automobile drivers to use their horn at every intersection. Why do we require trains to sound the horn at every intersection? Why can the train not reserve the horn for when there is someone on the tracks?
dcrazy 2y ago
I was so excited for the EMUs, but unfortunately the near-vertical seat backs are extremely uncomfortable. I ride a coach bus to work and rely on working during my commute. I simply cannot work on Caltrain.
dheera 2y ago
Transit renaissance? Until I can get across both the 84 and 92 bridges by train, to Half Moon Bay, and to Santa Cruz by train, I wouldn't call it a renaissance. Even Cupertino doesn't have a station ffs
presentation 2y ago
The train itself was quiet when I rode it from SF to Palo Alto but they were honking the horn almost nonstop… so much for peace and quiet.
- usr1106 2y ago
  I grew up in a 600,000 inhabitants city in Germany. They got EMUs in the 1930s. When they got the next generation in the 1970s all level crossings were replaced. So California, one of the forerunners in the US, seems to be roughly 90 years behind. Depends on your age whether you'll be able to enjoy a quiet train trip during your lifetime. </sarcasm>
  - dcrazy 2y ago
    In 1930s California’s population boom had just started. There were 5 million people in the state, split between San Francisco and Los Angeles. Both cities had electric trams, but the demand for regional rail wasn’t high enough to electrify it. Even today it’s not uncommon to de-electrify lower-volume rights of way.
- DiogenesKynikos 2y ago
  That's because they still haven't eliminated the crossing points. They need to turn every road or pedestrian crossing into an underpass or overpass, or eliminate it. They've started on this process, but it will take many years.
  - Symbiote 2y ago
    Trains don't honk in much of Europe when approaching a gated crossing. The lights and barriers are assumed to be sufficient. Within cities, there may well be CCTV cameras (pointing only at the crossing) so the signal controllers can check the crossing is clear. More video than you could possibly want: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hidjpkqJ0-Y https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hidjpkqJ0-Y (I think the honk in the first one is the train driver recognizing the person filming? It's far too late to be for safety.)
iancmceachern 2y ago
Don't forget the Sea Change Hydrogen Ferry!

by blintz 2y ago

ninetyninenine 2y ago

Haha. Doubtful. In your lifetime you won't see any transit system in the bay area that approaches anything remotely close to what you see in places like Tokyo or NYC. I get that there's improvement but like it's still rather pathetic compared to almost everywhere else across the pond.

lswainemoore 2y ago
Why so negative? Given that the served population is conservatively a quarter of either of those areas, doesn't seem like a fair comparison. More to the point, I've been favorably impressed with the transit options since moving here, and in terms of reliability it's been better than NYC, though obviously there are fewer trains/branches. I'd love to see BART open later, like NYC, but even Tokyo trains stop at midnight.
- astrange 2y ago
  NYC is more or less the only system in the world that runs all night like that. It makes it very hard to do maintenance.
  - frosted-flakes 2y ago
    And NYC can do that because most of it's lines have three or four tracks.
- ninetyninenine 2y ago
  It's fair. NYC is 8.8 million, bay area is 7 million. Tokyo is about double that. Not being negative. Being realistic. It's unfortunate that being realistic often is negative. Transit here is garbage. You either luck out and live and work near transit or you're like most people and have to drive. A couple million in energy savings doesn't mean anything compared to the amount wasted by cars.
  - verteu 2y ago
    Surely the relevant metric is population density?
    - ninetyninenine 2y ago
      You have the causal arrow backwards. A high density train network enables population density and high energy efficiency. At current population density all of our lives would improve if a network as dense as the tokyo metro appeared in the bay area over night.
  - lswainemoore 2y ago
    Those are not the right population metrics to compare. If you're talking full Bay Area, you might as well talk NYC metro area (MTA claims to serve 15.3 million [1]). Tokyo's even trickier, but I think 36 million [2] seems closer to right. It's probably not worth arguing about too much, because ultimately I agree with you that there's a lot more to be done to reduce car ridership. But pointing at those places and saying "copy them" misses a lot of structural differences. [1] https://mta.info/about https://mta.info/about [2] https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/0056b6a98b8b4a48869f822d2c4edbf4 https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/0056b6a98b8b4a48869f822...
astrange 2y ago
If you copy Japan policies you can get something much closer to Japan, it's not magic. (Transit oriented upzoning, no parking minimums, and businesses in the station building.)
- ninetyninenine 2y ago
  If it's not magic why isn't it being done? That's the point. This news is rather pathetic strictly because a better scenario is NOT magic.
  - zeroonetwothree 2y ago
    Simple. Most people don’t want it.
    - ninetyninenine 2y ago
      They do. You're not being realistic. Almost everyone would like to have a choice between getting on a subway for super cheap or driving through traffic. You're saying they would rather have no choice between the two options? Come on. The Bay area (people) want top of the line transit, all of California wants it. It's similar to how Ethiopia wants to get out of poverty. Both places can't get what they want for similar reasons: incapability. Take a look at the high speed rail. Probably won't finish in both of our lifetimes. People want that thing, what's stopping it from happening is incompetence.
      - Johnny555 2y ago
        They do. You're not being realistic. Almost everyone would like to have a choice between getting on a subway for super cheap or driving through traffic. You're saying they would rather have no choice between the two options? Come on Sure, everyone wants an easy commute where the train picks them up in front of their house and drops them off at the office, but they also want their house with yard in Walnut Creek. Or lacking that, their single family house in the Sunset. Sure some people would be happy in a high density city, but do enough people want it to make it worth building? As dense as downtown San Francisco is, it's still a long commute to the Easy Bay or Peninsula from the Sunset or Richmond. Driving is usually faster and more convenient.
spike021 2y ago
Tokyo metropolitan area is nothing like the SF Bay Area. It's extremely different and so is ridership. Also, if you check out smaller cities in Japan they don't always have as good public transit. Heck, even in Tokyo you can find neighborhoods where you still need to walk or maybe take a bus because train lines don't quite reach them.

infotainment 2y ago

Agreed largely, though IMO BART is holding the bay area back. Unlike Caltrain and Muni, BART management is completely incompetent and more focused on spending their money on random things than actually running their transit system. Fun fact: BART police has a large fleet of SUVs, with the highest vehicle-to-officer ratio in the bay area (if only there were some other way for them to get around!) Fun exercise: compare the cleanliness of a Muni Bus/LRV to a BART car (even a new one at the start of the day). There is a huge difference.

insane_dreamer 2y ago
> BART police why does a transit system need its own police force? Aren't municipal and county police enough?
- hydrogen7800 2y ago
  That's a good question, any I have no idea of the answer, but the port authority of NY and NJ has it's own police. I always figured it was because it spanned jurisdictions, but perhaps there are other reasons
  - SoftTalker 2y ago
    Chicago has CTA police and the suburban rail system Metra has its own police also.
    - selectodude 2y ago
      CTA doesn’t have its own police. That’s just normal CPD.
      - SoftTalker 2y ago
        Hm, maybe CPD has a CTA detail then? I thought there was (or used to be) a CTA police division that had their own uniforms, cars, etc. I seem to also remember a CHA police for the housing projects, but it's been a long time since I lived there.

pm90 2y ago

To unlock the true value of these systems the BA needs to be forced to increase density of their cities though. We need SF proper to look more like Manhattan.

jmward01 2y ago
It also needs a much bigger emphasis on transit oriented development. In Japan the best place to eat in town is often in the train station or within a few feet of it. In the US the stops are often some of the worst places like parking lots or run down parts of town. Rarely have I seen good shopping/dining/living integrated into BA, or even US in general, transit systems.
- pm90 2y ago
  Agreed. Caltrain stops are… definitely not that. The SF stations are somewhat out of the way (although the planned extension would bring it all the way to the transit center). I do see a lot more residential units coming up near transit nodes, although its not nearly enough! The San Jose Caltrain is a prime exhibition of what you said: surrounded by parking lots and it feels quite deserted and creepy instead of being a bustling, thriving commercial area (although a few blocks near there is a nice commercial area with a brewery and many eateries, including a whole foods).
- saagarjha 2y ago
  What do you mean? Subway in 4th and King is fire
- wffurr 2y ago
  My office in Cambridge, Massachusetts is directly in a 12 story tower with ground floor retail directly on top of a transit station. TOD does exist, it’s just rare for whatever reason in NA. That said, there are lots of other stops in the area that are either overrun with parking, like you said, or are one story business districts with no housing. Lots left to do. I suspect the problem might be mismatched incentives. ISTR reading that some East Asian transit companies own and develop the parcels on and around their stations, which provides funding and drives ridership.

zer0zzz 2y ago

The new sfo terminal too

potato3732842 2y ago

> It’s way quieter, the cars have nicer interiors, and it is running faster and more frequently than before. Not that electric isn't a huge step up for all the usual reasons but most of that is just because it's new and hasn't been worn out yet.

markerz 2y ago
Electric does help with getting cars to run quieter and faster though. With the old diesel engines, they needed more headway because of slower cold start times so there's more frequency and can hit the speed limit faster. Electric engines have high torque and are naturally much quieter.
- pm90 2y ago
  Yup not to mention that the fumes from diesel engines got into the cars so you tended to avoid the ones close to the engine. Its a HUGE qol improvement!
  - stevenwoo 2y ago
    Also makes waiting at either end, San Jose or San Francisco more pleasant with cleaner air to breathe instead of fumes if you are a little early.
    - saagarjha 2y ago
      San Jose unfortunately has the Gilroy commuter trains idling in the station :(
      - arcticbull 2y ago
        For now. They're replacing them with battery-electric trains that can go past Tamien. Yeah, it should just have caternaries the whole way down but you know how rail is around here -- owned by Union Pacific, and the federal government prevents municipalities from exercising eminent domain to take control of railways.

blackeyeblitzar 2y ago

How is safety these days? The last time I was in a BART station, I had to intervene in an uncomfortable situation where a (possibly high) man was bothering a young woman. It felt surreal because everyone around hadn’t helped her at all and was just ignoring what was happening.

tfehring 2y ago
BART is better than it was but still bad. Caltrain is totally fine though.

ChuckMcM 2y ago

It has been great hasn't it?!? The difference between running every 30 minutes on weekends vs ever 2 hours is the difference between hopping on the train up to Redwood City for lunch with a friend and then back again. Versus one of us driving one way or the other. If they can electrify the San Jose to Gilroy segment that will be even better.

saagarjha 2y ago
I think they are running into issues with that because they don't own the rail lines, so they will probably go with batteries rather than overhead lines.

enos_feedler 2y ago

Im reading this from a train going from SFO to Milbrae! Y’all can thank me for the electricity later!!

ummonk 2y ago

Huh? The new BART cars sound as screechy as ever to me, much louder than the old diesel Caltrain, never mind the new electric Caltrain.

bagels 2y ago

Still loud as ever until they get rid of the horns.

okdood64 2y ago
People don't understand and respect public transportation (train in this context) in this country. There's a lot of dumbasses who will be on the tracks when and where they should not be. Hence we need those loud horns.
- bagels 2y ago
  People have much easier access to roads, where many more deaths occur. We don't require automobile drivers to use their horn at every intersection. Why do we require trains to sound the horn at every intersection? Why can the train not reserve the horn for when there is someone on the tracks?

dcrazy 2y ago

I was so excited for the EMUs, but unfortunately the near-vertical seat backs are extremely uncomfortable. I ride a coach bus to work and rely on working during my commute. I simply cannot work on Caltrain.

dheera 2y ago

Transit renaissance? Until I can get across both the 84 and 92 bridges by train, to Half Moon Bay, and to Santa Cruz by train, I wouldn't call it a renaissance. Even Cupertino doesn't have a station ffs

presentation 2y ago

The train itself was quiet when I rode it from SF to Palo Alto but they were honking the horn almost nonstop… so much for peace and quiet.

usr1106 2y ago
I grew up in a 600,000 inhabitants city in Germany. They got EMUs in the 1930s. When they got the next generation in the 1970s all level crossings were replaced. So California, one of the forerunners in the US, seems to be roughly 90 years behind. Depends on your age whether you'll be able to enjoy a quiet train trip during your lifetime. </sarcasm>
- dcrazy 2y ago
  In 1930s California’s population boom had just started. There were 5 million people in the state, split between San Francisco and Los Angeles. Both cities had electric trams, but the demand for regional rail wasn’t high enough to electrify it. Even today it’s not uncommon to de-electrify lower-volume rights of way.
DiogenesKynikos 2y ago
That's because they still haven't eliminated the crossing points. They need to turn every road or pedestrian crossing into an underpass or overpass, or eliminate it. They've started on this process, but it will take many years.
- Symbiote 2y ago
  Trains don't honk in much of Europe when approaching a gated crossing. The lights and barriers are assumed to be sufficient. Within cities, there may well be CCTV cameras (pointing only at the crossing) so the signal controllers can check the crossing is clear. More video than you could possibly want: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hidjpkqJ0-Y https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hidjpkqJ0-Y (I think the honk in the first one is the train driver recognizing the person filming? It's far too late to be for safety.)

iancmceachern 2y ago

Don't forget the Sea Change Hydrogen Ferry!