5 ms·

The machines will have owners; likely, these owners will be very few due to the concentration of wealth that they will have accumulated by the time we reach ful

The machines will have owners; likely, these owners will be very few due to the concentration of wealth that they will have accumulated by the time we reach full automation. So, probably a guy will own all the agricultural automation, another one the warehouse automation, another one the software, etc. Then there will also be the resource owners (probably states or big landlords). Since resources are finite (land, minerals), the automation owners will need to pay for these. Among these folks, there will be an exchange of money. So, for the rest of us, if we don’t own some resource, the outlook does not seem very bright. Maybe prostitution to the owners will be the only available job.

master-lincoln 2y ago
Or we just rob the resource owners and burn the automation.
- harperlee 2y ago
  Or tax their capital with income redistribution purposes, as we are already doing with more down to earth means of production.
  - Cumpiler69 2y ago
    >Or tax their capital You'd have to abolish tax heavens and loopholes first.
- krior 2y ago
  Works well until the security sector gets automated.
  - gpderetta 2y ago
    that's how you get terminators.
    - ashoeafoot 2y ago
      that or sunshine on planets
hyencomper 2y ago
I think there would be open-source machine variants that many people could own and modify. As population growth is slowing, finite resources should hopefully have a better and wider distribution among people as they would not be constraints.
thrance 2y ago
We'll have to seize it all by then.
- edu 2y ago
  It’s seems pretty obvious that in that scenario that’s what will happen. Hopefully it won’t be too dramatic…
- Cumpiler69 2y ago
  How do you propose we do the seizing? Historically that never had good results, because the people who want to seize the wealth and the power are exactly those who shouldn't have it and be trusted with it, so you're exchanging one set of oligarchs with another set of despots.
  - thrance 2y ago
    It's hard to make predictions for such a hypothetical future, but let me try anyway. If we ever reach 100% unemployment, the working class (in which I inlcude all that depend on wages to live) will lose its only leverage in today's world: its labor. This is bound to make the situation very dire, very quickly for the vast majority of the population (>99%). I see only two solutions: * Either the owners push for some kind of UBI to buy social peace, leaving us with just enough that we don't hang them. * Or they rely on robocops (or regular cops) to keep us in line. In which case it's either rebellion or slow extinction for us. My preferred solution would be to install a new political system that ensures fair redistribution of products and good management of natural resources, which I think is easily achievable in a world of AGI and robots.
    - Cumpiler69 2y ago
      How will you hang the billionaires? It's not like they'll live next door to you instead of on their Billionaire Island with private security. The billionaires can always do what they've always done and pay half the poor people to shoot and oppress the other half if things don't go their way. As long as you keep the people with guns well paid, you're good. Dividing the lower classes and pitting them against each other has always been successful in conquering them and preventing them from uniting and rising up again the ruling elite because collectively, people are stupid and easy to manipulate against their own interests, like cattle.
nikolayasdf123 2y ago
that sounds like Mad Max tbh,
Wilsoniumite 2y ago
I wrote about this a bit on my blog [1] but to add to this idea, > Maybe prostitution to the owners will be the only available job. Pre industrial revolution, labor was in a sense cheaper than it was during the industrial revolution, and one genuinely interesting set of professions that existed then was house servants. Butlers, maids, cooks, under butlers and so on. It would not be inconceivable to see the return of these kinds of jobs? Ones where the value of human labor is so low that working for someone with wealth in their own home is common? [1] https://wilsoniumite.com/2024/09/09/how-do-we-fix-it/ https://wilsoniumite.com/2024/09/09/how-do-we-fix-it/
- scrappyjoe 2y ago
  I suppose that house servants performed two functions - menial tasks, and emotional labour. Competence at both was essential. A house servant who was great at making beds but super annoying or had no emotional intelligence probably didn't last very long. The menial tasks component will probably be automated away. Which leaves the emotional labour. Put another way, our job will be to be liked by the people with power. Liked enough to be kept around. The only job left in the future is that of the pet.
  - 9rx 2y ago
    > our job will be to be liked by the people with power. So, for most people, no change from the job they are already doing?
    - scrappyjoe 2y ago
      I approve of this implication
  - ashoeafoot 2y ago
    They were appliances. a kitchenaid at the farm of my great uncle did one job.. that of a kitchenaid. whisk and kneed all day+ gossip
    - 2y ago
chii 2y ago
> Maybe prostitution to the owners will be the only available job. or something new that an ai or machine hasn't managed yet, and something that have not been imagined today. And why not prostitution, if it comes to it? And with the automation being so widespread, goods would be so cheap that the meagre taxes paid would sustain the costs of food stamps, basic living necessities, etc.
Ekaros 2y ago
> Maybe prostitution to the owners will be the only available job. I wonder, I wonder... I think there is certain prestige companion jobs that might exist. But your AI girlfriends and why not sex dolls with perfect bodies tailored to taste can do lot of the lifting. Then again, child bearing and rearing might be viable "occupation". After all having lot of kids have been always been popular in certain classes.
lm28469 2y ago
That sounds a lot like what we already have, the HN crowd is just lucky to be in the top 30% earners
fendy3002 2y ago
there's two ways to face this situation, the pessimistic one is to just die. Futuristic sci-fi stories usually have endangered human or even human extinction aspect in there, with / without harsh climate and / or war / conflict. The optimistic? Hold out until the chance come. In thousands (millions) years of human civilization, not a single civilization can stay eternal. That kind of civilization will perish too, if not the humanity to perish first, especially because Murphy's law (if something can go wrong, it will, and usually at the worst time). And IMO that kind of civilization will still have a long way to arrive, and we're more likely already dead before it arrive. Because that one Murphy's law, and limited resources for automation. In an area where infrastructure is not yet sufficient, usually human are the best to handle the job.
ashoeafoot 2y ago
society will nor be stable long enough to see this
ssssvd 2y ago
Property rights require legal framework supported by a legitimised monopoly on violence (which is, almost universally, a nation state). Disenfranchising people means delegitimising the state means wrecking the frame of ownership rights. That's probably the biggest conundrum ahead. 1. Capital owners need us as labour units. 2. Capital owners need nation state as the guarantor of their rights to accumulated capital. 3. Nation state needs us to legitimise itself. AI/robotics kills (1). How the system will rebalance from here?
- Kye 2y ago
  Someone will own and rent out all the killbots to people looking to protect their stuff.
  - ffsm8 2y ago
    That would work until the first security incident, then everything is owned by the hacker. Albeit with some cleanup necessary to take out the expired humans.
maxerickson 2y ago
We can sell them safety.

master-lincoln 2y ago

Or we just rob the resource owners and burn the automation.

harperlee 2y ago
Or tax their capital with income redistribution purposes, as we are already doing with more down to earth means of production.
- Cumpiler69 2y ago
  >Or tax their capital You'd have to abolish tax heavens and loopholes first.
krior 2y ago
Works well until the security sector gets automated.
- gpderetta 2y ago
  that's how you get terminators.
  - ashoeafoot 2y ago
    that or sunshine on planets

hyencomper 2y ago

I think there would be open-source machine variants that many people could own and modify. As population growth is slowing, finite resources should hopefully have a better and wider distribution among people as they would not be constraints.

thrance 2y ago

We'll have to seize it all by then.

edu 2y ago
It’s seems pretty obvious that in that scenario that’s what will happen. Hopefully it won’t be too dramatic…
Cumpiler69 2y ago
How do you propose we do the seizing? Historically that never had good results, because the people who want to seize the wealth and the power are exactly those who shouldn't have it and be trusted with it, so you're exchanging one set of oligarchs with another set of despots.
- thrance 2y ago
  It's hard to make predictions for such a hypothetical future, but let me try anyway. If we ever reach 100% unemployment, the working class (in which I inlcude all that depend on wages to live) will lose its only leverage in today's world: its labor. This is bound to make the situation very dire, very quickly for the vast majority of the population (>99%). I see only two solutions: * Either the owners push for some kind of UBI to buy social peace, leaving us with just enough that we don't hang them. * Or they rely on robocops (or regular cops) to keep us in line. In which case it's either rebellion or slow extinction for us. My preferred solution would be to install a new political system that ensures fair redistribution of products and good management of natural resources, which I think is easily achievable in a world of AGI and robots.
  - Cumpiler69 2y ago
    How will you hang the billionaires? It's not like they'll live next door to you instead of on their Billionaire Island with private security. The billionaires can always do what they've always done and pay half the poor people to shoot and oppress the other half if things don't go their way. As long as you keep the people with guns well paid, you're good. Dividing the lower classes and pitting them against each other has always been successful in conquering them and preventing them from uniting and rising up again the ruling elite because collectively, people are stupid and easy to manipulate against their own interests, like cattle.

nikolayasdf123 2y ago

that sounds like Mad Max tbh,

Wilsoniumite 2y ago

I wrote about this a bit on my blog [1] but to add to this idea, > Maybe prostitution to the owners will be the only available job. Pre industrial revolution, labor was in a sense cheaper than it was during the industrial revolution, and one genuinely interesting set of professions that existed then was house servants. Butlers, maids, cooks, under butlers and so on. It would not be inconceivable to see the return of these kinds of jobs? Ones where the value of human labor is so low that working for someone with wealth in their own home is common? [1] https://wilsoniumite.com/2024/09/09/how-do-we-fix-it/ https://wilsoniumite.com/2024/09/09/how-do-we-fix-it/

scrappyjoe 2y ago
I suppose that house servants performed two functions - menial tasks, and emotional labour. Competence at both was essential. A house servant who was great at making beds but super annoying or had no emotional intelligence probably didn't last very long. The menial tasks component will probably be automated away. Which leaves the emotional labour. Put another way, our job will be to be liked by the people with power. Liked enough to be kept around. The only job left in the future is that of the pet.
- 9rx 2y ago
  > our job will be to be liked by the people with power. So, for most people, no change from the job they are already doing?
  - scrappyjoe 2y ago
    I approve of this implication
- ashoeafoot 2y ago
  They were appliances. a kitchenaid at the farm of my great uncle did one job.. that of a kitchenaid. whisk and kneed all day+ gossip
  - 2y ago

chii 2y ago

> Maybe prostitution to the owners will be the only available job. or something new that an ai or machine hasn't managed yet, and something that have not been imagined today. And why not prostitution, if it comes to it? And with the automation being so widespread, goods would be so cheap that the meagre taxes paid would sustain the costs of food stamps, basic living necessities, etc.

Ekaros 2y ago

> Maybe prostitution to the owners will be the only available job. I wonder, I wonder... I think there is certain prestige companion jobs that might exist. But your AI girlfriends and why not sex dolls with perfect bodies tailored to taste can do lot of the lifting. Then again, child bearing and rearing might be viable "occupation". After all having lot of kids have been always been popular in certain classes.

lm28469 2y ago

That sounds a lot like what we already have, the HN crowd is just lucky to be in the top 30% earners

fendy3002 2y ago

there's two ways to face this situation, the pessimistic one is to just die. Futuristic sci-fi stories usually have endangered human or even human extinction aspect in there, with / without harsh climate and / or war / conflict. The optimistic? Hold out until the chance come. In thousands (millions) years of human civilization, not a single civilization can stay eternal. That kind of civilization will perish too, if not the humanity to perish first, especially because Murphy's law (if something can go wrong, it will, and usually at the worst time). And IMO that kind of civilization will still have a long way to arrive, and we're more likely already dead before it arrive. Because that one Murphy's law, and limited resources for automation. In an area where infrastructure is not yet sufficient, usually human are the best to handle the job.

ashoeafoot 2y ago

society will nor be stable long enough to see this

ssssvd 2y ago

Property rights require legal framework supported by a legitimised monopoly on violence (which is, almost universally, a nation state). Disenfranchising people means delegitimising the state means wrecking the frame of ownership rights. That's probably the biggest conundrum ahead. 1. Capital owners need us as labour units. 2. Capital owners need nation state as the guarantor of their rights to accumulated capital. 3. Nation state needs us to legitimise itself. AI/robotics kills (1). How the system will rebalance from here?

Kye 2y ago
Someone will own and rent out all the killbots to people looking to protect their stuff.
- ffsm8 2y ago
  That would work until the first security incident, then everything is owned by the hacker. Albeit with some cleanup necessary to take out the expired humans.

maxerickson 2y ago

We can sell them safety.