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Ask HN: What programming language should I teach my little brother?

41 points by atestu 18y ago

My brother is 13 and asked me to teach him "how to code". I really don't know what programming language would be the best to start at this age. First I thought of C because it will also teach him how the Linux he runs was made. But… I hate C. I personnally learned programming with OCaml and Pascal. I still love OCaml (pattern matching FTW), but it didn't really teach me anything about Unix… I'm looking for a language that would be easy to learn, with a beautiful syntax, and that would gently introduce a 13 year old to the amazing world of Unix/Linux. Any ideas?

kwamenum86 18y ago
Go with C++. I learned C++ at 12 and learning every other language (except those based on the functional paradigm) has been a breeze. Starting with a more "difficult" language will give him a good foundation. And C++ really shouldn't be too difficult anyways if he is really interested in the material (sounds like he would be).
dimm 18y ago
Python is easy to learn. Some advice by ESR : http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html#skills1 http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html#skills1
- utnick 18y ago
  and use pygame to teach him how to make games and get him excited about programming
lv_ 18y ago
ruby! he will be a rockstar by 16 and we will all thank you
lv_ 18y ago
ruby! he will be a rockstar by 16 and we will all thank you
cmos 18y ago
Call me old school, but I would start off with Basic. If he was younger I would recommend Logo. Once he's hooked I would get him into C or pascal. I can't recommend enough getting him a "Basic Stamp" kit. Seeing how software can control hardware is magical. Then work him up into "Arduino" world in C.
- bprater 18y ago
  This is not a bad idea. Interfacing with hardware can be really fun, but basic enough that they can be creative. "Hey, see if you can make those 8 LEDs do like the KITT car!"
- aswanson 18y ago
  BASIC will scar him. You might as well go with ruby or python, you get the same facility and start off with an extensible paradigm.
  - hello_moto 18y ago
    Why? I thought BASIC is very good to teach basic programming concept such as Loops, line-by-line execution, etc. Really, for a beginner, one must have that kind of mindset.
    - aswanson 18y ago
      1)LET s =10 imparts no further understanding than s=10. 2) Numbering lines for programs is nonsensical. 3) Gotos are bad practice. 4) Most programs consist of more than 1 file. 5) Hello world is just as easy in any other (more useful) language. Can't think of any more off the head right now, time to eat.
    - docmach 18y ago
      Those are very imperative concepts and while imperative programming is good for some things, a language that teaches and allows for higher-level programming is probably a good idea. Languages like Python and Ruby allow functional and object-oriented programming which are becoming more and more common.
charlesju 18y ago
Ruby. It's the most human-readable language out there. I personally think that it's a lot easier to get started with the basic concepts of programming like while loops, if statements, etc. It is a lot easier to do those things when you don't have to think about including random libraries and putting everything in specifically named functions (ie. main() or static-something-or-another in JAVA) and what-not. It's the fastest way to get started.
anotherjesse 18y ago
I would recommend Python or if the Unix/Linux component isn't as important, JavaScript. JavaScript would allow your brother to share his creations with friends and learning the amazing (and at times frustrating world) world of the web.
- andrewljohnson 18y ago
  Go with Python. I taught my 7-year old nephew Python in an hour, but failed to teach him javascript. There's just too much to type and explain. Also, it's easier to explain to someone if you have an interpreter going and they can see the results.
  - racyrick 18y ago
    Yes, I second that the interpreter is easy to show people basic things. The cocos2d stuff with the interpreter are really informative.
- amichail 18y ago
  I would say Python also. But why do you care about the Unix/Linux component? Better to focus on non-OS specific stuff. After Python, you could also try teaching him Scala.
- russell 18y ago
  Python is a good choice because it is clean, easy to learn, and has a large choice of libraries like pygame. It is important to choose a language that encourages good programming practices. For that reason PHP and Basic are bad choices. Some of the worst code in the world is written in PHP or Basic. I would also stay away from languages like perl. Avoid languages like C++ or Java because there is so much to learn before you can produce a simple Hello World. There is no reason to learn OOP to do a simple task. I think JavaScript would be a reasonable second language. He should learn programming firs before having to deal with browsers, the DOM model, and OOP.
  - bprater 18y ago
time_management 18y ago
Don't teach him one programming language, because if he wants to be a hacker, he'll need exposure to many. Ruby or Python is good for a start, because it's easy to debug and you can do simple, cool things with them pretty quickly. Then introduce him to Lisp or Scheme, and finally OCaml or Haskell so he's exposed to good static typing. Save C for later (by the time he's ready for it, he'll be picking languages rather than asking you for advice).
maxwell 18y ago
AppJet now, C later.
fuzzmeister 18y ago
As a teenager, I tried various "real" coding languages - C++, Java, VB (ugh) - but I was never able to get engaged in them. All I wanted to do was build something cool quickly, and none of these languages allowed that without a significant time investment. Then, I tried out PHP. Within a few days, I was building random tools left and right, and having a great time doing it. So, to get him interested, I recommend you choose a language that lets him get results fast.
- RossM 18y ago
  PHP's how I got into programming too. It's a relatively easy language to learn as it doesn't worry too much about typing and it's syntax leaves a nice bridge to C which could be just what you need.
- ericb 18y ago
  This is good advice. I personally thought VB6 did a good job of letting you build something quickly in its day, in spite of its other faults.
- walesmd 18y ago
  Same here, I started with QBasic and VB but never really accomplished anything in them. PHP is when I really started to "do stuff." These days though, I would recommend teaching him Python or Ruby.
- Zak 18y ago
  Second on the idea that it should be quick and easy to make useful stuff, but I have to disagree on PHP. Most of the example code out there is terrible, out of date or both. It's very easy to make a mess in PHP. Python seems to be the teaching language of choice these days, and it lets you do useful stuff without getting in the way. It's certainly not the only language to learn, but I'm inclined to say it should be the first.
  - mmj 18y ago
    Yeah, PHP isn't an excellent language but it does do one thing and do it well. Just 99% of examples or scripts you find are absolutley horrible. Seriously, I've seen blog posts on PHP from IBM which contain bad programming practices.
noblethrasher 18y ago
Since you know OCaml how about teaching him Haskell followed by C? The former should be pretty accessible to a 13 year old and he’ll have a lot of time to wrestle with some of the more difficult concepts like Monads (although I think exposure to them at an early age will make them easier to grok since he doesn’t have to unlearn a bunch of other stuff). I highly recommend Real World Haskell (http://book.realworldhaskell.org/read/ http://book.realworldhaskell.org/read/) if you do decide to go that route. Apologies for a (related) tangent but I'm in a very similar situation (except that my little brother is 31). He has more artistic inclinations but in the past he's demonstrated an aptitude for mathematics and is generally good at problem solving. I've been teaching him some basic set theory and number theory in preparation for some actually programming. My first thought is to teach him one high level language like Lisp followed by a low level language like C. On the other hand, JavaScript (+ HTML) has some of the best of both of those worlds with the added benefit of affording immediate gratification. Any thoughts? *Admittedly, my bro is a bit more motivated by financial considerations but I do think he will come to appreciate the beauty of programming if it is presented the right way.
- eru 18y ago
  Why are Monads considered difficult?
  - brl 18y ago
    They are difficult because the concept is very unfamiliar and abstract. It's also not very easy to see the motivation at first.
    - eru 18y ago
      Perhaps I am too tainted. Monads can be motivated as a generalization of a lot of stuff that follows similar rules (the Monad laws). E.g. Lists, Haskell's Maybe (representing success/failure), sequential computation.
      - brl 18y ago
Eliezer 18y ago
I realize I'm sounding here like I've been seduced, but I truly don't understand why you would want to teach any first language other than Python.
- xenophanes 18y ago
  Do you understand that ruby is similar to python, and some people consider the differences to be advantages? Also, there are arguments that Lisp is better than everything else. Especially when the goal is to learn something (rather than get a product out the door, which makes it more important to have existing libraries, and to be able to hire people who know the language).
pavelludiq 18y ago
python or ruby are good choices. They can be used to do UNIX scripting, and each one has some really cool modules to do graphic stuff. I'm learning ruby just now, so that i can do GUI programming with shoes, and im using _why's guide: http://poignantguide.net/ruby/index.html http://poignantguide.net/ruby/index.html I don't know which one is better for a 13 year old, just pick the one you know better.
- unalone 18y ago
  Seconding Ruby, just for _why's guide. I've never read anything that makes me so immediately enthusiastic about coding, and it still has that effect when I reread it. I wish I'd known about that as a kid.
  - derefr 18y ago
    I've always liked Chris Pine's tutorial (http://pine.fm/LearnToProgram/ http://pine.fm/LearnToProgram/), because you can go through them with someone who's paying attention in about two hours. I do love _why for self-teaching, though. My biggest recommendation, though, is that once the kid has any sort of "foundational" programming language under his belt, you write a Scheme interpreter together, in that language, and then show him that the interpreter you just wrote can run Scheme files that already exist (possibly ones you pre-prepared.) That's the best way, I've found, to burn into someone's head that there's no one-true-language, and to get their mind started experimenting with "what if the language was different in way X? Could I code that?" trains of thought.
  - fp 18y ago
    I'd also recommend Ruby and suggest you take a look at Shoes (http://shoooes.net/ http://shoooes.net/) which makes it very easy to code GUI-apps with all sorts of fun-stuff in them like animations, downloading data from the web, videos. The most important part in teaching a 13 year old programming is to let him have fun and a give him a sense of achievement. The rest will come.
  - brianto2010 18y ago
    Also consider Hackety Hack from _why. It is very involving, giving step-by-step instructions and crystal-clear explanations (like TryRuby). http://hacketyhack.net/reality/ http://hacketyhack.net/reality/
chriseidhof 18y ago
Whatever language you choose: write a lot of (small?) shell scripts. This is very unix-y and also easy. The composing of those scripts using unix-pipes also will give him a little bit experience with things like modularity. Also, I'd choose a language I like and that I'm familiar with. I think OCaml would definitely be a good start. Strongly typed and strict, lots of possibilities for abstraction, it's all pretty cool. Or teach him (and yourself) Haskell using RWH or something. If you go for an imperative language then Ruby or Python would probably be a good idea. Those languages are really a lot like English and have a lot of momentum. If you go for Ruby, take a look at http://hackety.org/ http://hackety.org/, I think it's awesome for young programmers.
bprater 18y ago
I've given this question lots of thought over the years. I really started loving programming when I found Garry Kitchen's GameMaker. It wasn't very elegant, but it was damn fun. I'd push him toward PHP. The goal isn't to make him a great programmer with an amazing language. The goal is to get him doing fun stuff fast, so that he sticks around. When things are fun, kids stick around. I'm guessing that many readers here got hooked on a language, not because it was a functional language, but because you could accomplish things quickly. Introduce him to PHP and work with him on coming up with a very specific project he wants to hammer out. Then you can sit down and walk him through the various phases of putting it together.
vorador 18y ago
I would suggest a language like newlisp (http://newlisp.org http://newlisp.org), that has enough libraries to do unix scripting. Also, you should consider teaching him awk because it has simple semantics and it will be simpler for him to switch to C later. Btw, why do you hate C ?
- atestu 18y ago
  I really hate the syntax, and I may be lazy but I'm sick of memory leaks and stuff. I don't want to spend my time tweaking my program so that it won't take to much resources, etc… I prefer languages that offers a certain abstraction, languages that allow me to concentrate on the algorithmic part of the program, the core of the application.
- hs 18y ago
  i second the newlisp :D then js+jquery with firebug console as repl
swapspace 18y ago
Python and probably a lot of shell scripting. I like zsh a lot.
iamdave 18y ago
Ruby. Give the Why's Poignant Guide and you can't go wrong. Plus he'll love the cartoons, even if he doesn't get the strangely subtle adult humor.
DavidSJ 18y ago
Scratch (http://scratch.mit.edu/ http://scratch.mit.edu/) is a good way to learn the basics of putting programs together. It's done visually and it may feel like just a toy, but you can do some pretty cool things, it has a very shallow learning curve, and it can intuitively guide you to learning some important concepts which then have applicability to traditional programming.
- tptacek 18y ago
  My 9 year old son is pretty facile with Scratch, and my 7 year old daughter loves playing with it. I second this recommendation for younger kids.
smanek 18y ago
Logo isn't too bad. It's open source, scheme derived, and very easy to make games (beginners like immediate feedback). http://education.mit.edu/starlogo/ http://education.mit.edu/starlogo/ At 13, he may be too old for it, but Logo was one of my first languages back in elementary school, and I remember being very excited that I could write my own galaxian clone in just a day or so. Otherwise, I would stay away from JavaScript and Ruby (I like them, but they are hard for beginners) and stick with Python.
rw 18y ago
I recommend NetLogo. It is simple to learn, LISP-inspired, and makes it trivially easy to do all sorts of graphical work. It runs on the JVM. (I took a class in which we used NetLogo to run agent-based economics simulations. Lots of fun, although the LISPer in you will start to hate it after a while.)
stcredzero 18y ago
Whatever you teach him, teach him something that you love. You will infect him with your enthusiasm and that matters an order of magnitude more than which language. Heck, there are plenty of situations where exactly this happened, and the programming language was COBOL or Assembly!
carlosrr 18y ago
ActionScript was the first programming language I learned. I found some tutorials on how to make games and little by little learned by changing the source code. Being able to create graphics was very rewarding and the popularity of flash made it easy to show my friends what I had done. The feedback loop was very important in keeping me interested in programming. Project sprouts (http://www.projectsprouts.com http://www.projectsprouts.com) makes it easy to get started in ActionScript and is also a good introduction to writing support scripts in Ruby.
tphyahoo 18y ago
perl, javascript, haskell. perl: practicality + fanatically helpful community, and it's in unix's dna javascript: nice skill, something you can make money in if you're good, immediate gratification on web pages haskell (or lisp): get some theory in there. i'd vote haskell because of the community
shaunxcode 18y ago
smalltalk, absolutely.
- david927 18y ago
  This is how I would go too. And if/when he really likes it and wants to move on, LISP.
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limmeau 18y ago
When I was at your brother's age (roughly), I started with dBase III+ and QuickBasic because that's what was installed on the discarded IBM PC/XT my father took home from work. What kept me motivated was that interactive programs were just an INPUT A$ and a LINE(x,y,x1,y1) away. Today, I'd have to write dozens of lines of GUI code just to get a program with input and graphical output. You may want to check out Processing at http://www.processing.org/ http://www.processing.org/ which offers a bit of that good old simplicity.
thomatas 18y ago
Javascript. It gives him a chance to create GUIs pretty quickly by saving any page he sees on the internet and tweaking it. And he can create things that are useful to him pretty quickly if you show him Greasemonkey.
lallysingh 18y ago
The most important thing to get a programmer started is to get them a project they want to finish. So, get him on something with good feedback. Does he play any games that have scripting languages? Lua's pretty popular. Additionally, there's TorqueScript, for the torque engine (garagegames.com). If he's not a gamer, dump the imperative stuff & have him start on scheme or lisp. If you haven't broken your mind into imperative thought like most of us, it's actually pretty straightforward. And it'll probably fit well with the math classes he's probably taking right now. Teaching him how to solve homework problems in code can really drive usage. If he's interested on the web side, generating HTML from a functional language is pretty straightforward. Please, no PHP. Friends don't let friends do PHP.
DTrejo 18y ago
I highly recommend JLogo: http://www.bfoit.org/itp/itp.html http://www.bfoit.org/itp/itp.html This site and JLogo are geared toward first time learners. It is very easy to take oneself through the lessons and learn all the basics of programming. After going through these lessons, taking AP computer science (Java) was much easier for me. (And if you are in the bay area, consider having him apply to the summer program: http://bfoit.org/ http://bfoit.org/)
jefffoster 18y ago
Squeak (http://www.squeak.org/ http://www.squeak.org/) is fun. It's designed for teaching, has lots of high level libraries available and it's simple (everything is in one system). This isn't going to do much to help with Unix/Linux mind, but as someone else pointed out programming is supposed to be fun.
frankus 18y ago
If he's a little on the fence whether he really wants to get into programming, I would start with something where he can do stuff that looks impressive with relatively little effort. C is a horrible choice by this standard, starting with the modify-compile-crash development cycle and especially once you get into manually managing memory. It's not really coding per se, but HTML is a good thing to get a feel for whether you get a kick out of bending a computer to your will, and would let him show off his creations to his friends. He can also earn some spending money if he gets proficient. After that he can get into JavaScript and maybe something like JQuery which makes doing more complex stuff much less tedious. At that point he can probably decide if he wants to learn "real" programming, and you can introduce him to scripting languages, compiled languages and whatever APIs and frameworks he is interested in.
andreyf 18y ago
JavaScript, Python, Scheme, Ruby.
creativeembassy 18y ago
I would recommend Ruby because its loose syntax is more forgiving, good for new programmers. Then on top of that, learn Shoes for a graphical interface for creating games. Ruby+Shoes is the modern Basic. Then again, just have him learn Basic. :-p That's how I learned.
nemo2 18y ago
I love Python, use it for all sorts of stuff, but I remember there were some things that went over my head learning it because I didn't understand OOP, and until I saw its beauty and the important aspects of writing clean code I hated the forced indentation. Plus I wasn't using vim then, and my lazy butt still doesn't like having to manually indent two-to-four spaces, depending on the project/language. So maybe PHP would be better--tied with XHTML, CSS, and little by little some JavaScript. However, he's 13, so I don't think doing things in C or even Perl would be too daunting. (I can't recommend pure shell stuff with no graphics to people younger than 10 (sometimes 12) or so; it's just not that interesting for them.) So then again Perl might be a better choice if you want to do a bunch of shell stuff. Have fun explaining cat.pl to him: #!/usr/bin/perl while (<>) { print; }
CatDancer 18y ago
Appjet (http://appjet.com/learn-to-program/lessons/intro http://appjet.com/learn-to-program/lessons/intro) would be really cool. When he wrote a program, he could share it with his friends instantly just by sending them the URL.
scott_s 18y ago
There's lots of good advice here, and I've upmodded the ones I agree with. But, really, it doesn't matter. Anything that lets him create something is good. Some people here are concerned about "best programming practices" and learning certain lessons. He's 13. Just let him play, and if he likes programming, he'll continue learning.
- kwamenum86 18y ago
  I've heard several people say that when people start with PHP (or [insert language here]) they develop poor programming habits. Learning PHP or whatever else first could be the difference between becoming a casual programmer and a serious hacker.
  - scott_s 18y ago
    I submit the concept of "poor programming habits" does not exist for a 13-year-old.
    - kwamenum86 18y ago
      Not yet and that is my point. That concept does not exist for anyone who has not programmed. I think we just have a disagreement philosophically in the proper approach. I think that this kid should be carefully molded into a coder who does things the right way because he already seems to have an interest. If he did not have an interest already then I could see why you would want to "ease" him into things. I think your "let the kid be a kid" argument is valid though. It could be overwhelming and turn him off to the whole thing is coding appears to be too strict.
      - scott_s 18y ago
        He's expressed an interest, but he still doesn't know what it is. If you hover over him and continually tell him "you're doing it wrong" he won't have fun. In order for someone to decide it's worth their time to learn the best practices for anything, they first have to reach the point where they decide "I want to get good at this." The kid may never reach that point, and that's okay, too. Kids express interest in lots of things. That doesn't mean they'll do any of them for the rest of their life.
jakozaur 18y ago
Python and teach him early library Pygame. For 13 the motivation is the key and nothing could beat creating own games.
maneesh 18y ago
Ahh---sorry for the self-promotion but I really believe what I am saying: I wrote a book called Game Programming for Teens, which teenagers tend to like because it teaches them to make video games off the bat (using a modified version of BASIC), gets them interested in programming, and then helps them move on to learning more difficult languages b/c they already have some programming concepts down. The book is here http://www.amazon.com/Game-Programming-Teens-Maneesh-Sethi/dp/1598635182/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1216280404&sr=1-3 http://www.amazon.com/Game-Programming-Teens-Maneesh-Sethi/d...
sown 18y ago
i started with LOGO
mmmurf 18y ago
The approach I'd use would be to find a problem he wants to solve, and teach him to solve it in a few languages. One of the big "duh" moments when learning CS is when you realize that all languages consist of similar structures to let you get things done. Not sure what his interests are, but I'd probably choose from: Ruby or Python Haskell or Lisp Javascript Maybe c or c++ too to remove the intimidation factor, even if it's just for Hello World. After he can write simple 50-ish line programs in those three languages and knows a bit about how they work, zoom in on one of them and take things a bit deeper, and then a few weeks later zoom back out and see if he can "self-teach" himself those same concepts in the other languages. This assumes he doesn't want to just jump in a build something for the web, in which case you have to decide how much HTML/dom/standards stuff to teach him (which is largely boring to newcomers) at the expense of doing some cooler programs. Alternately, you might just want to use pygame and build a fun, playable game with him and not worry about too much theory until after he's having a lot of fun with it.
brentr 18y ago
Why not tell him of several languages and let him ask you questions and decide for himself what to learn? Those who accomplish the most are those who strike their own path.
zupatol 18y ago
It might be fun to start with a specialized language like processing, which makes it easy to create interactive animations. Here is what the creators of processing say: 'Processing was never intended as the ultimate language for programming visuals; instead, we set out to make something that was: * A sketchbook for our own work, simplifying the majority of tasks that we undertake. * A programming environment suitable for teaching programming to a non-traditional audience. * A stepping stone from scripting languages to more complicated or difficult languages such as full-blown Java or C++. At the intersection of these points is a tradeoff between speed and simplicity of use. If we didn't care about speed, it might make sense to use Python, Ruby, or many other scripting languages. This is especially true for the education side. If we didn't care about making a transition to more advanced languages, we'd probably avoid a C++ or Java-style syntax. But Java makes a nice starting point for a sketching language because it's far more forgiving than C/C++ and also allows users to export sketches for distribution via the web.' (quote taken from http://www.processing.org/learning/gettingstarted/ http://www.processing.org/learning/gettingstarted/)
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known 18y ago
Even though you hate C, I recommend C, because you learn intricacies of computer software with C.
drhowarddrfine 18y ago
Then you should teach him C or assembly. But you don't want to teach him C. So fuck off.
seshagiric 18y ago
at 13 your brother need not worry about memory leaks :) Just let him start with C. More importantly you should concentrate on what can be done with code(e.g. create a blog, automatically search from library of congress or wikipedia, create a graph of his favorite football team etc etc). People get hooked when they accomplish something...bothering about language or the finer nuances like memory leak etc can come later.
kailashbadu 18y ago
An ideal programming language for absolute beginners is the one that doesn’t force them to worry about underlying computing structure(e.g. memory management). Instead the language should teach the fundamental principles of programming (like control statements and the concept of subroutine) in a simple environment that is free of complexities. I would recommend either Karel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karel_(programming_language) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karel_(programming_language)) or Alice (http://www.alice.org/ http://www.alice.org/).
Tichy 18y ago
For an average person I would think JavaScript would be the most useful language, but for a 13 year old? It really depends on what he is interested in. For example maybe he would enjoy programming Lego robots? Or creating his own Flash games?
vizard 18y ago
Processing.org : easy to get started with graphics. I have been having fun with it recently myself.
Yjjj 17y ago
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bprater 18y ago
Let's keep rehashing how a language creates terrible code and how none of it has anything to do with the guy sitting in the chair pushing buttons. Seriously, can we just nuke this argument?
- mechanical_fish 18y ago
  I'm not sure that this "please think of the children" argument -- the one which asserts that the sight of PHP will forever warp the minds of children and risk turning them into script kiddies, or Blub programmers, or crack addicts -- can be nuked. It's really old. People were apparently using it when I was thirteen -- except that the guilty party back then was not PHP, which was more than a decade in the future, but BASIC. And I obviously didn't know about the controversy at the time, because I was too busy using hunt-and-peck typing to rekey my BASIC apps over and over again. (At the time my school's brand-new Commodore 64s didn't have tape drives, let alone floppies.) And the kids were alright back then, and they are alright now. Applesoft BASIC makes PHP 5 look like Haskell (we're talking about a language with nothing but global scope, here), but the generation that built the Web grew up using it and it didn't hurt anyone. The smart kids just moved on to better things as they became aware of them. Teach the kid something fun. For a thirteen year old, that's very likely to be Javascript, Actionscript (i.e. Flash), or PHP, though I certainly might give Shoes or Hackety Hack a try, or maybe this Scratch thing: http://scratch.mit.edu http://scratch.mit.edu. Try several of these and see if any of them stick. But don't get hung up on the details. The guy is thirteen. There will be plenty of time for him to learn how ugly, fragile, insecure, opaque, and unmaintainable his code is. Try to let him have some fun and get hooked before he's forced to learn the truth. He won't sit still for it, otherwise.
  - Zak 18y ago
    As an occasional reader of The Daily WTF, I don't think it's fair to say that this sort of thing never hurt anyone. Every language that has been around for a while has its own culture and traditions. The culture of PHP is a better reason to avoid it than the language itself. I spent a lot of time un-learning habits I picked up from languages like PHP and BASIC. I suspect I would know a lot more now if I had started with Smalltalk[0] and not had to waste as much time un-learning bad habits. [0] Python wasn't around then