6 ms·

this is private capital. yes, we are in an era of big projects and big capital deployment. is that synonymous with centralized autarky? i don’t agree

i_love_retros 2y ago
What does it have to do with Trump then? Why was he involved?
- umeshunni 2y ago
  He love the publicity and most people won't realize that he doesn't have anything to do with this.
  - aylmao 2y ago
    AI very much has to do with the state. It's an arms race between China and the USA, per many [4]. And China doesn't seem to be behind any longer [1]. It's not only Trump. Before leaving Biden already ordered the DoE and the DoD to lease sites for data centers and energy generation. The only reason we don't see a "Department of AI" or a "National AI Agency" is due to how the military industrial complex works, and a lot of lobbying I'm sure. [1] https://www.scmp.com/tech/policy/article/3295662/beijing-meeting-puts-spotlight-chinas-new-face-ai-deepseek-founder-liang-wenfeng https://www.scmp.com/tech/policy/article/3295662/beijing-mee... [2] https://www.insideglobaltech.com/2025/01/20/biden-administration-releases-executive-order-on-ai-infrastructure/ https://www.insideglobaltech.com/2025/01/20/biden-administra... [3] https://www.utilitydive.com/news/biden-doe-dod-lease-sites-ai-data-centers-clean-energy/737257/ https://www.utilitydive.com/news/biden-doe-dod-lease-sites-a... [4] https://www.technologyreview.com/2025/01/21/1110269/there-can-be-no-winners-in-a-us-china-ai-arms-race/ https://www.technologyreview.com/2025/01/21/1110269/there-ca...
  - FrustratedMonky 2y ago
    Funny how he said he did this, but then right during the press conference they mention the data centers already under construction from Biden time frame.
- rchaud 2y ago
  Because $500b is not a number anybody will commit to without significant assurances regarding tax breaks, access to labour, security etc which can only be provided by the state. Musk cannot ban Chinese autos from the US market, but the government can. Same goes for Tiktok, Zuck cannot force Americans not to use it. AI is the next battlefield and further bans will be coming down the line to make sure the investment is protected.
  - api 2y ago
    Musk could also work to make Tesla more competitive with BYD in the mainstream American car market instead of making Tesla double and then triple down on a weird niche product like the Cybertruck that will never appeal to many people. Tesla had a huge lead in EV tech that they seem to be squandering by not addressing boring stuff like build quality, giving BYD plenty of time to catch up. Their whole product line is starting to look stagnant. Keeping BYD out won't help if all the other car makers also catch up. If BYD pulls far enough ahead they could just create a US division and make cars here like Toyota and Nissan do. Nissan is on the ropes, so maybe BYD could just buy them and make that their US brand and get all their factories and supply chains. If Tesla kept iterating on the Model 3, released the Model E, and Musk stayed out of divisive politics that alienate customers, Tesla had a chance to own the mainstream of the US auto market for the next 50 years. I'd say that's gone now.
    - ethbr1 2y ago
      Person who was right a few times, despite others naysaying, assumes they're right on new things, especially as they get older... That's certainly not a thing that's ever happened before. /s
      - api 2y ago
        Yeah, I am reminded of Linus Pauling thinking vitamin C cured everything. Success is dangerous.
        ethbr1 2y ago
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > What does it have to do with Trump then? Why was he involved? One of the broken parts of the American system is permitting. Trump can sidestep that by letting this be built on federal land. That, in turn, unlocks investment. Beyond that, DoD and DoE are massive buyers of compute. Seeding the venture with purchase agreements from them de-risks the project further. Finally, by Trump putting his name to it he assigns it his bully pulpit's prestige. (Though that doesn't appear to have carried over to Musk, who's already taking pot shots at it.)
lenerdenator 2y ago
This is an amount that would be a meaningful change to most US states' gross annual economic output that we're talking about, and a few people control it. Sounds pretty centralized to me. The fact that a handful of individuals have half a trillion dollars to throw at something that may or may not work while working people can pay the price of a decent used car each year, every year to their health insurance company only to have claims denied is insane.
- whimsicalism 2y ago
  Free movement of capital and the ability to identify promising projects and allocate our resources there are why our society is prosperous and why we are able to devote more resources towards healthcare than any society that has ever come before us. This money is managed by small amounts of people but it is aggregated from millions of investors, most of these are public companies. The US spends over 10x that amount on healthcare each year.
  - lenerdenator 2y ago
    Is that why I, and a lot of other people my age, have a lower standard of living than my parents did at the same point in their lives? The "free movement of capital" only ever seems to move the capital one direction: up to the people who needed the labor of others to reach such wealth.
    - whimsicalism 2y ago
      The large majority of people do not have a lower standard of living than their parents at the same age. My dad’s family could not even afford shoes for him and he lived in Europe. I am sorry that you feel you are downwardly mobile, but you should not assume your experience generalizes.
      - lenerdenator 2y ago
        Mine lived in America. Where the story in the article is taking place. This is, in fact, a generalized experience: [0] [0]https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2019/02/14/millennial-life-how-young-adulthood-today-compares-with-prior-generations-2/ https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2019/02/14/millenn...
rchaud 2y ago
And where do you think the socialists of the 60s got hard currency to import machinery from? Borrowing from non-state lenders.
- whimsicalism 2y ago
  borrowing from non-state lenders is neither a necessary nor sufficient condition for ‘autarky’ and your reasoning seems to just be since it happened in South America in the 60s it must be part of the economic mismanagement that occurred there. i agree that our protectionist policies are bad and autarkic in nature
- FrustratedMonky 2y ago
  Like every other country. You exchange good or services for currencies from the other countries, and then you can use that currency to buy things from anybody that would take that currency. There is nothing saying a socialist country can't produce goods and services, and sell them.
FrustratedMonky 2y ago
Is this word being used correctly? au·tar·ky /ˈôˌtärkē/ noun economic independence or self-sufficiency. "rural community autarchy is a Utopian dream" a country, state, or society which is economically independent. plural noun: autarkies; plural noun: autarchies
- maxlin 2y ago
  that's what I thought
- boredhedgehog 2y ago
  But which word did he mean instead? It seems it should a synonym for "coterie".

i_love_retros 2y ago

What does it have to do with Trump then? Why was he involved?

umeshunni 2y ago
He love the publicity and most people won't realize that he doesn't have anything to do with this.
- aylmao 2y ago
  AI very much has to do with the state. It's an arms race between China and the USA, per many [4]. And China doesn't seem to be behind any longer [1]. It's not only Trump. Before leaving Biden already ordered the DoE and the DoD to lease sites for data centers and energy generation. The only reason we don't see a "Department of AI" or a "National AI Agency" is due to how the military industrial complex works, and a lot of lobbying I'm sure. [1] https://www.scmp.com/tech/policy/article/3295662/beijing-meeting-puts-spotlight-chinas-new-face-ai-deepseek-founder-liang-wenfeng https://www.scmp.com/tech/policy/article/3295662/beijing-mee... [2] https://www.insideglobaltech.com/2025/01/20/biden-administration-releases-executive-order-on-ai-infrastructure/ https://www.insideglobaltech.com/2025/01/20/biden-administra... [3] https://www.utilitydive.com/news/biden-doe-dod-lease-sites-ai-data-centers-clean-energy/737257/ https://www.utilitydive.com/news/biden-doe-dod-lease-sites-a... [4] https://www.technologyreview.com/2025/01/21/1110269/there-can-be-no-winners-in-a-us-china-ai-arms-race/ https://www.technologyreview.com/2025/01/21/1110269/there-ca...
- FrustratedMonky 2y ago
  Funny how he said he did this, but then right during the press conference they mention the data centers already under construction from Biden time frame.
rchaud 2y ago
Because $500b is not a number anybody will commit to without significant assurances regarding tax breaks, access to labour, security etc which can only be provided by the state. Musk cannot ban Chinese autos from the US market, but the government can. Same goes for Tiktok, Zuck cannot force Americans not to use it. AI is the next battlefield and further bans will be coming down the line to make sure the investment is protected.
- api 2y ago
  Musk could also work to make Tesla more competitive with BYD in the mainstream American car market instead of making Tesla double and then triple down on a weird niche product like the Cybertruck that will never appeal to many people. Tesla had a huge lead in EV tech that they seem to be squandering by not addressing boring stuff like build quality, giving BYD plenty of time to catch up. Their whole product line is starting to look stagnant. Keeping BYD out won't help if all the other car makers also catch up. If BYD pulls far enough ahead they could just create a US division and make cars here like Toyota and Nissan do. Nissan is on the ropes, so maybe BYD could just buy them and make that their US brand and get all their factories and supply chains. If Tesla kept iterating on the Model 3, released the Model E, and Musk stayed out of divisive politics that alienate customers, Tesla had a chance to own the mainstream of the US auto market for the next 50 years. I'd say that's gone now.
  - ethbr1 2y ago
    Person who was right a few times, despite others naysaying, assumes they're right on new things, especially as they get older... That's certainly not a thing that's ever happened before. /s
    - api 2y ago
      Yeah, I am reminded of Linus Pauling thinking vitamin C cured everything. Success is dangerous.
      - ethbr1 2y ago
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> What does it have to do with Trump then? Why was he involved? One of the broken parts of the American system is permitting. Trump can sidestep that by letting this be built on federal land. That, in turn, unlocks investment. Beyond that, DoD and DoE are massive buyers of compute. Seeding the venture with purchase agreements from them de-risks the project further. Finally, by Trump putting his name to it he assigns it his bully pulpit's prestige. (Though that doesn't appear to have carried over to Musk, who's already taking pot shots at it.)

lenerdenator 2y ago

This is an amount that would be a meaningful change to most US states' gross annual economic output that we're talking about, and a few people control it. Sounds pretty centralized to me. The fact that a handful of individuals have half a trillion dollars to throw at something that may or may not work while working people can pay the price of a decent used car each year, every year to their health insurance company only to have claims denied is insane.

whimsicalism 2y ago
Free movement of capital and the ability to identify promising projects and allocate our resources there are why our society is prosperous and why we are able to devote more resources towards healthcare than any society that has ever come before us. This money is managed by small amounts of people but it is aggregated from millions of investors, most of these are public companies. The US spends over 10x that amount on healthcare each year.
- lenerdenator 2y ago
  Is that why I, and a lot of other people my age, have a lower standard of living than my parents did at the same point in their lives? The "free movement of capital" only ever seems to move the capital one direction: up to the people who needed the labor of others to reach such wealth.
  - whimsicalism 2y ago
    The large majority of people do not have a lower standard of living than their parents at the same age. My dad’s family could not even afford shoes for him and he lived in Europe. I am sorry that you feel you are downwardly mobile, but you should not assume your experience generalizes.
    - lenerdenator 2y ago
      Mine lived in America. Where the story in the article is taking place. This is, in fact, a generalized experience: [0] [0]https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2019/02/14/millennial-life-how-young-adulthood-today-compares-with-prior-generations-2/ https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2019/02/14/millenn...

rchaud 2y ago

And where do you think the socialists of the 60s got hard currency to import machinery from? Borrowing from non-state lenders.

whimsicalism 2y ago
borrowing from non-state lenders is neither a necessary nor sufficient condition for ‘autarky’ and your reasoning seems to just be since it happened in South America in the 60s it must be part of the economic mismanagement that occurred there. i agree that our protectionist policies are bad and autarkic in nature
FrustratedMonky 2y ago
Like every other country. You exchange good or services for currencies from the other countries, and then you can use that currency to buy things from anybody that would take that currency. There is nothing saying a socialist country can't produce goods and services, and sell them.

FrustratedMonky 2y ago

Is this word being used correctly? au·tar·ky /ˈôˌtärkē/ noun economic independence or self-sufficiency. "rural community autarchy is a Utopian dream" a country, state, or society which is economically independent. plural noun: autarkies; plural noun: autarchies

maxlin 2y ago
that's what I thought
boredhedgehog 2y ago
But which word did he mean instead? It seems it should a synonym for "coterie".