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I feel torn about this because it seems there was good evidence for attempted murder- and I cannot understand why they never tried him for that (seemingly large

by _yb2s 2y ago

I feel torn about this because it seems there was good evidence for attempted murder- and I cannot understand why they never tried him for that (seemingly larger) crime. However, for the crime he was actually found guilty of, the sentence was unfair and unreasonable. It seems they unethically sentenced him for crimes he was not even ever charged with. I'd also argue he almost certainly saved a huge number of lives with Silk Road: the ability to view eBay style feedback and chemical test results makes buying illegal drugs far safer than buying them on the street. On Silk Road people could buy from a reputable seller with a long history of providing unadulterated products, and could view testimonials from other buyers who had sent the products for chemical analysis.

azinman2 2y ago
Not going to comment on the murder part as that’s well discussed here. I would take issue with assuming that it was net positive with ratings. Given the anonymous nature handling bots spamming fake reviews would be even harder to catch here, and you ultimately don’t know who ended up addicted/hooked/DUI’s etc from the easy availability this provided. I’m not sure the total effects could ever be qualified, but it’s not like unadulterated drugs are automatically safe. Just look at how many lives pharma-grade opioids ruined, even though they were “safe”. That’s also not to mention guns and all kinds of other dangerous & illegal parts of it. I do not understand why he pardoned this guy when he’s supposedly anti-drug and anti-cartel.
- mtoner23 2y ago
  i think this points to a bunch of weird crypto people are actually in charge of a lot of this administration
  - etc-hosts 2y ago
    Marc Andreessen and Ben Horowitz have significant influence on staffing. Vivek Ramaswamy is a partner at a16z
- grayhatter 2y ago
  > I do not understand why he pardoned this guy when he’s supposedly anti-drug and anti-cartel. why do you believe he's anti-drug or anti-cartel?
  - azinman2 2y ago
    Well, he just did an executive order to label cartels as foreign terrorists, and has spoken at length about drugs in many of his speeches. Not sure why you think such a statement is controversial.
    - hedora 2y ago
      He made sure the Sacklers could keep their fortunes and continue to sell opioids.
    - grayhatter 2y ago
      Because I don't think he has a honestly held belief about anything. I think he's happy to do whatever is most expedient for his interests. He wants to be known as a guy who trades favors, so here, he ignored all the previous fear mongering about [scary thing], and is repaying the favor to the "libertarian party" who wanted this, and voted for him. Almost everything he says is just for show, fits his pattern of behavior better than, "he believes [thing he said]" does. I just read another article about how the person who says we need to follow "law and order" and "respect police" just pardoned everybody convicted of violence against police... again, trading favors instead of consistently following something he said.
  - nozzlegear 2y ago
    I'm no Trump fan and won't go to bat for him, but being anti-drug and anti-cartel is literally one of his schticks.
    - grayhatter 2y ago
      I replied with more details in a sister thread but calling it a schtick is more accurate that I think you meant. It's exclusively a shtick; he doesn't actually believe it, or care about it.
- _yb2s 2y ago
  > I would take issue with assuming that it was net positive with ratings. I know this is probably as minority view, but I think if adults consent to buying and using any drug, that should be both fully legal, and their right and responsibility- any negative consequences are 100% their own fault, not the person who sold them. It's probably true that making drugs easier to buy made more people buy them, but I was only considering the ill effects of fraudulently adulterated products. Do the math differently if you don't see it this way. I don't know how Silk Road was designed, and have never actually used it or anything like it- but I imagine it would be possible to eliminate fraudulent reviews with proper design, and they may have done so. eBay, for example, is almost free of fraudulent reviews because posting a single review is very expensive- you'd need to sell an item to yourself for full price, and then pay eBay their full (rather large) cut to post a single fraudulent review. As a buyer, you should be able to take a single high effort review that contains something like mass spec chemical analysis results, and further confirm that the reviewer themselves has a credible history of making purchases and reviews broadly across a lot of different sellers. An impossibly expensive to fake signal. This could also be done automatically by the platform- by making the more credible reviews display first. > I do not understand why he pardoned this guy when he’s supposedly anti-drug and anti-cartel. I explained this in another comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42787217 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42787217 Trump is not an idealist- he will promise anything to anyone if it gets power and attention. Previously, he had attempted a political career as a leftist, and switched to the right because it was getting more traction.
  - azinman2 2y ago
    Re-consenting: this is a different argument than saying more lives were saved because the reviews would remove adulterated products. Again, just look at opioid addiction for very clear evidence of the opposite effect. It is very clear from what you’ve said that you haven’t used it :) I have browsed it when it was active and I was very pro tor. You’re making a lot of assumptions that simply don’t hold for silk road.
    - _yb2s 2y ago
      > Again, just look at opioid addiction for very clear evidence of the opposite effect. I was playing devil's advocate, but agree there is more culpability to a seller if the drug overwhelms your ability to make the choice in the first place- however a lot of very illegal drugs do not do this. More so if you're using emotionally manipulative ads and selling methods as the alcohol and pharma industry do.
- hedora 2y ago
  Historically, many anti-drug / anti-cartel leaders are actually members of a rival cartel, and want to use law enforcement to fight their wars for them. The Mexican government has a long history of this. The LAPD’s (well documented for over 50 years) do the same thing. Trump is a convicted felon with lots of ties to organized crime. Nothing about him pardoning members of some criminal organizations but not others is surprising. In related news, he signed an executive order forcing prosecutors to seek the death penalty when police are killed, and in the same day pardoned 132 of his supporters that were convicted of assaulting police officers during an event where officers were killed.
  - azinman2 2y ago
    You think Trump is involved with drug selling organized crime, and this guy somehow was on “his side”?
  - reverendsteveii 2y ago
    >he signed an executive order forcing prosecutors to seek the death penalty when police are killed He also pardoned a drug dealing cop killer at the end of his last term. Said cop killer has since been arrested for attempting to strangle his wife to death. https://www.wesh.com/article/cop-killer-pardoned-by-trump-commits-new-crime-in-florida/62073373 https://www.wesh.com/article/cop-killer-pardoned-by-trump-co...
  - motorest 2y ago
    > Historically, many anti-drug / anti-cartel leaders are actually members of a rival cartel, and want to use law enforcement to fight their wars for them. For reference, Rudy Giuliani was lauded as the anti-organized mayor that brought down the Italian mob in New York, but ultimately was flagged as actually being an upper echelon of Russian organized crime who worked to establish it by eliminating competiton. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudy_Giuliani https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudy_Giuliani
    - Maxatar 2y ago
      The Wikipedia article does not flag Giuliani as being a member of Russian organized crime, but someone who Giuliani's law firm represents, an individual by the name of Dmytry Firtash. Furthermore the timeline for this is over a decade after Giuliani was mayor of New York.
- rmah 2y ago
  Well, now you probably understand that Trump is not really anti-drug/anti-cartel. Nor do I think he's pro-drug/pro-cartel. I think he doesn't actually care except in how those issues affect his political career and public profile. Many of Trump's more ... let's call them "random" seeming statements and actions make much more sense if you look at them through the lens of "he doesn't actually care one way or the other".
  - Slava_Propanei 2y ago
    [dead]
  - kmeisthax 2y ago
    Trump is pro-Trump. That's it.
    - markhahn 2y ago
      Well, also pro-publicity and pro-distraction (firehose). Of course those are ultimately self-benefiting too.
- diggan 2y ago
  > That’s also not to mention guns and all kinds of other dangerous & illegal parts of it. I think it isn't mentioned because Silk Road didn't actually facilitate any selling/buying of weapons or any items "whose purpose was to "harm or defraud."" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silk_Road_(marketplace)#Products https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silk_Road_(marketplace)#Produc... > I do not understand why he pardoned this guy when he’s supposedly anti-drug and anti-cartel. He's the candidate that was preferred by Christians, yet probably he was the least Christian-like candidate. Just today/yesterday he criticized a Bishop for values that are clearly Christian, people seem to swallow it. I'm pretty sure trying to add logic/reasoning to the choices he makes is a lost cause.
  - zombiwoof 2y ago
    Facebook doesn’t make the comments that will kill people
    - banku_brougham 2y ago
      Probably the first social media genocide was organized on Facebook, the Rohingya genocide. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohingya_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohingya_genocide
      - diggan 2y ago
        Similarly, the first social media revolutions were also organized on Facebook (and Twitter): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Spring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Spring
    - toasterlovin 2y ago
      "Facebook is a communication tool for friends and family that is sometimes used for illegal activity" is categorically different than "Silk Road is a tool created to facilitate illegal activity."
  - azinman2 2y ago
    I saw guns on it when I joined years ago.
- napkin 2y ago
  (SWIM’s experience with Silk Road): For LSD there existed a third-party forum, where a group of (supposedly) vendor-neutral, unaffiliated individuals would purchase samples from vendors, send them to private or state-sponsored labs around the world and publish/discuss the results (often with online links to lab results). Yes, of course vendors could have also attempted to infiltrate these forums. But as enough of these functions were provided by/for the community, the profit incentive tilts. If you ran a vendor account on the Silk Road, your effort was better spent maintaining/improving good infosec and mail/postal security. Some techniques they developed were quite innovative, the professionalism was evident. Ross’s story is fascinating and tragic- as everything that’s said for and against his character is generally true. Silk Road was built on naive yet admirable ideals. It fostered a special community, some of which really did reflect those ideals. He got in over his head, and really did try to have someone killed. Though, the details on that latter point are a bit more complicated- authorities had infiltrated Ross’s inner circle- the motive and the ‘hitman’ himself were fictional. Ross still took the bait though, which is pretty damning. Until that point, they weren’t sure they had a sufficient case on him.
  - _yb2s 2y ago
    Is that why they never prosecuted the attempted murder? It sounds like entrapment. That's the point people don't seem to be getting about anonymous reviews- if the review is more costly than the value it provides the seller, they won't do it, and it's fairly easy to make that the case. A separate enthusiast forum where the reviews are from people with a long history of high effort engagement is a good example of that. That's basically the idea behind crypto as well- making false transactions is more expensive than the value it could return.
    - rtkwe 2y ago
      Entrapment requires some coercive/persuasive force by the government to push you to commit the crime, the government is allowed to setup entirely fake scenarios and let you choose to do a crime.
      - 2y ago
- armandososa 2y ago
  he is just anti-mexico.
- hinkley 2y ago
  Something anyone with an addict in their life needs to know: While substances can efficiently help someone destroy their life, keeping them away from drugs won’t stop them from destroying their lives. There’s something already broken in these people that they need to fix before it’s too late. There are perfectly legal alternatives that can be just as effective with a little more effort. Putting heroin in your arm is just quicker than downing a fifth of vodka, or chasing dopamine at the dog track.
  - Willish42 2y ago
    I think you're advocating for better mental health care and rehabilitation of addicts, which I agree with. However, the idea that addicts will destroy their lives regardless of whether they stop using, or are forced to stop using, their drug of choice is an extremely dangerous statement. Many addicts get better by changing their environment and quitting/going to rehab/etc. Furthermore, heroin != vodka in terms of how addictive it is for the average user, and that's partly why only one of them is legal for recreational use. Controversies about decriminalization aside, harm reduction exists as a studied component in addiction, public health, and psychology circles for a reason.
    - dgfitz 2y ago
      Alcohol destroys many, many more lives than heroin. Isn’t even close.
      - lolinder 2y ago
        The important question isn't raw numbers, it's which destroys a greater percentage of lives out of those who consume it. If heroin were as widespread as alcohol, would it still be true that alcohol destroys more lives? We obviously can't know for sure without trying it, but preliminary results aren't promising.
  - snailmailstare 2y ago
    Yeah, I don't know. There's certainly people that are just broken, but reading other examples, I think there are plenty of people who just happen on to a perfect addiction(, or maybe an imperfect one that fills the spot). The manifest destiny stuff is kind of a mix that soothes a lot of people with various motives whether or not it is representative of the median case.
- sweeter 2y ago
  Its purely transactional. The Libertarians gave him their endorsement and one of the things they wanted in return was this pardon and deregulation.
  - azinman2 2y ago
    The libertarian party or a bunch of crypto bros? I don’t get why “libertarians” would care about this one guy?
    - etc-hosts 2y ago
      Ulbricht's career represents many core values of a certain wing of today's Libertarians. * unfettered and unregulated and anonymous weapons sales. * willful ignorance and rejection of any of the social costs of buying and selling hard drugs. * commerce that operates in a world that is difficult to be taxes by government entities, and ideally anonymously (even though bitcoin is the least anonymous thing in the world)
      - azinman2 2y ago
        So are libertarians fighting for complete legalization of drugs? If so, why aren’t they pressing on Trump for that? Why wasn’t that an executive order vs pardoning this guy?
        etc-hosts 2y ago
        I don't think Trump actually has a lot of Core Beliefs besides do stuff that appears strong on tv. A large portion of people at the Libertarian convention that Trump gave a speech at would prefer complete legalization of all drugs. I think it's a belief that a lot of us arrive at early in our lives, many eventually grow out of it.
        azinman2 2y ago
        > I think it's a belief that a lot of us arrive at early in our lives, many eventually grow out of it. Very astute. What’s interesting to me is the ability for youth to discount this potential change, mostly because they just see the end result vs the journey. I know I was like that.
- Beijinger 2y ago
  It was a promise to his libertarian voters....
- dutchbookmaker 2y ago
  I can only go off what I read in American Kingpin but from that book, to pardon Ulbricht is absolutely insane. Not to mention lets compare what Ulbricht did to say Snowden? Are you kidding me? It is like we live in some idiot version of the Twilight Zone.
johnwheeler 2y ago
The guy is a crook.
garyfirestorm 2y ago
They can try now! Because he is pardoned for the existing convictions not for future convictions
- _yb2s 2y ago
  That is interesting. I'd suspect he could possibly be found guilty of attempted murder, and have the sentence reduced or eliminated by arguing that his previous sentence unjustly assumed guilt for this as well, and factored it into the sentence he already served. If I remember correctly, there were comments from both the prosecution and judge that would basically prove that point- and they allowed evidence related to those other crimes in the trial. If they could prove this misconduct, they may even be able to argue double jeopardy.
  - etc-hosts 2y ago
    There was deliberately no mention of the alleged murders-for-hire during the trial. The judge said during sentencing that she was giving Ulbricht an incredibly harsh sentence to make an example of him to others who think that facilitating selling drugs is a victimless crime, and she was also angry at the huge stack of nice letters that people sent to the court in support of Ulbricht.
- sebzim4500 2y ago
  Good luck, when the main investigators have since gone to prison for crimes related to this investigation.
- hedora 2y ago
  Unless Trump screwed up the paper work, he’ll have been pardoned for past crimes, which includes the murder.
  - nozzlegear 2y ago
    And even if he did screw up the paper work, he could just write another pardon anyway. He can write infinite pardons (for federal charges, anyway).
Pxtl 2y ago
> I'd also argue he almost certainly saved a huge number of lives with Silk Road: the ability to view eBay style feedback and chemical test results makes buying illegal drugs far safer than buying them on the street. So will the Trump admin be making any moves on legalization or safe supply? Especially since between Musk and Kennedy's admitted drug use, the white house pharmacy report, and the allegations about the Trump family itself, it seems obvious that the White House appreciates the usefulness of illegal stimulants? Or is this another case of "in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect"?
smeeger 2y ago
the benefit wasnt really unique to silk road or ross. it was just a very convoluted, roundabout demonstration of how safe drug use can be when its done in the right environment. legalization would be even safer…
- trey-jones 2y ago
  Safer for buyers and users I guess. Based on being able to smell marijuana coming from so many car windows just walking around town, I'm not sure it would be safer for the public. I'm not anti-legalization by the way - I think it's similar to gambling: a mixed bag.
doctorpangloss 2y ago
You are feeling the same thing that some people felt who wanted OJ Simpson exonerated.
- no-dr-onboard 2y ago
  How so?
  - doctorpangloss 2y ago
    Okay, another comparison would be, everyone who wants Luigi Mangione exonerated also is feeling what some people felt when they wanted OJ Simpson to be exonerated. Do you see now?
    - zarzavat 2y ago
      Luigi is a symptom of an overly inactive justice system, if you don't prosecute crimes then some people take the law into their own hands (as a matter of fact). Preventing vigilantism is why having a working justice system is important to a functioning society. DPR is according to his defenders a symptom of an overly active justice system prosecuting crimes that shouldn't be prosecuted. Though I'm not sure I personally agree with that. OJ was just a crook.
      - jdminhbg 2y ago
        The Luigi some people have constructed in their minds is a symptom of an overly inactive justice system. The Luigi of real life is the symptom of a man suffering a psychotic break.
      - doctorpangloss 2y ago
        See, you are one of the people who feels about Luigi Mangione what some people felt about OJ Simpson. You’re getting it. You can read about how some people talked about OJ Simpson’s supposed innocence, it is exactly the same energy.
karlzt 2y ago
As for the murder part Christina Warren knows best: The murder for hire bit was always the most bullshit of all the charges. Not only were the fbi agents that were part of that later jailed for their own actions related to the case (including theft and hiding/deleting evidence), it was never real and no one was ever in danger. https://bsky.app/profile/filmgirl.bsky.social/post/3lgcck6i6e22d https://bsky.app/profile/filmgirl.bsky.social/post/3lgcck6i6...
- verteu 2y ago
  > it was never real and no one was ever in danger. Because one of the hitmen he hired was a scammer, and another was an FBI agent. Still clearly a crime to hire them for murder. Ulbricht's right-hand-man Roger Thomas Clark, who was involved in one of the murder-for-hire conversations, admitted the conversation was real during his trial: "In his own remarks, Clark didn't comment on that murder-for-hire conversation—which he at one point claimed had been fabricated by Ulbricht but later conceded was real."
- selfmodruntime 2y ago
  Wow! There have been multiple (astoundingly so) arrests of agents who were present in the Silk Road case. As far as I can see: 1 DEA agent for extortion, money laundering and fraud. 1 Secret Service Agent for money laundering. 2 Key advisors in the case.
- chandler5555 2y ago
  that was only one of the 6 murder for hires Chris Tarbell, the guy who arrested ross, talks about it on this podcast https://risky.biz/RB770/ https://risky.biz/RB770/ 37:08
  - defrost 2y ago
    Chris Tarbell states that there are logs about 6 imaginary "murder of hire"'s .. none of which actually took place, two were faked by the FBI(?) and four were scams run by third parties outside the USA. In the absence of any other context it's assumed these were acts of "intent to murder" but that's about it .. logs that look like a duck and probably were a duck. But no actual murders that anyone could find, no bodies, etc.
billiam 2y ago
I just can't fathom the lack of self-awareness of people who championed Ross Ulbricht's cause, seemingly because he looks like them, codes like them, and sat in the same public library they frequent or became associated with a techno-libertarian identity. Hundreds of drug and gun dealers are sentenced every week, some certainly unjustly. Where is the outrage for them?
- doctorpangloss 2y ago
  Ha ha, it turns out that there is affirmative action, for libertarians!
- stickfigure 2y ago
  Those people that championed Ulbricht's cause are for the most part also the people championing the cause of drug dealers and other victims of New Prohibition. If you genuinely care about this cause, you might ask yourself whether alienating other supporters is the best approach. If you're just looking for someone to feel superior about, find another forum.
  - sonotathrowaway 2y ago
    <citation needed>
- mcv 2y ago
  My impression is that a big part of the outrage is directed not at the conviction, but at the disproportionate sentence. I'm not surprised or upset at all that he went to prison, but unless I'm missing a ton of details (and I probably am), 12 years is plenty for what he did.
  - etc-hosts 2y ago
    It's the scale of the crime (he facilitated 10s of thousands of transactions), the judge clearly stated she wanted to make an example of him and give pause to anyone thinking about doing something similar in the future, and she was angry at the many of the letters of support Ulbricht's fans family and friends sent the court. My memory is she started the sentencing hearing by disdainfully reading a few of them from a pile of them she brought to the court that day.
486683864 2y ago
There was literally no evidence of an attempted murder. Just an empty and unsubstantiated accusation.
- etc-hosts 2y ago
  The lengths the FBI went to in one of the murder for hire cases is interesting. After Ulbricht ordered the hit on one of his forum moderators, the FBI visited him, took all of his computers, told him they were going to be "him" from now on online forever, had him "pose" in a bathtub where they hosed him off and doused him in ketchup to take fake trophy photos, had the "hitman" send the photos of Ulbricht, who famously commented "It had to be done."
  - 486683864 2y ago
    Did you just make that up? I have never heard that claim before and searching for Ross Ulbricht ketchup just leads back to your comment, so you seem to be the first person to ever claim this.
    - etc-hosts 2y ago
      You're right, the agents actually smeared him with Campbell’s Chicken & Stars to make him look he just got strangled. You got me! https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/04/how-the-feds-staged-torture-murder-of-a-silk-road-staffer/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/04/how-the-feds-sta... >Force got Green to sign a waiver, thereby commencing his role in an impromptu staged torture sting against DPR. Soon Green was being dunked in the bathtub of a Marriott suite by phony thugs who were in fact a Secret Service agent and a Baltimore postal inspector. Force recorded the action on a camera. “Did you get it?” Green asked, wet and wheezing on the floor. He’d felt like their simulation was a little too accurate. They dunked him four more times to get a convincing shot. There used to be an online archive of every little bit of public information known about the Silk Road's administrators and their court cases. I can't find it anymore. It was over 10 years ago. All I can remember is the site had a weird url.
Beijinger 2y ago
"for the crime he was actually found guilty of, the sentence was unfair and unreasonable." Was it? Based on current law in the US? While I do not know English Common law well, in many jurisdictions, every part of the drug dealing is drug dealing. Even if you never touch a drug and just provide payment processing services, transport or whatever, as long as you are aware of it and profit from it, it is drug dealing. So every transaction on Silk Road would also be his crime. And there were many, many many. On the other hand, for non-first degree murder, in several jurisdictions his sentence would have maxed out at 15 years. First time offender, he could have walked after 10.
- blitzar 2y ago
  In most of Asia the sentence would have been death (back to back multiple sentences if that is possible).
some_random 2y ago
The cybersecurity podcast Risky Business interviewed an FBI agent who was deeply involved, I'd highly recommend listening to it if you want that perspective. If I remember correctly, the agents who were investigating the murder for hire stuff were later found to have been stealing some of the bitcoin they were confiscating and the prosecutors fro the Ulbricht case decided they didn't need to bring up those charges to get a conviction (which they obviously didn't).
- chandler5555 2y ago
  yup. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7iPp5QaHmI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7iPp5QaHmI , starts at 36 minutes or so the bitcoin stealing was only one of the 6 murder for hires, so even if you think thats invalidated, there were still 5 others
kylebenzle 2y ago
What you are saying is nothing short of the manifestation of pure evil. Innocent until proven guilty, not guilty until a random hunch is resolved. The federal government has a long history of manufacturing evidence and this is no different. Again, pure evil what you are saying.
- _yb2s 2y ago
  What are you talking about? I specifically said it was unethical that they seem to have sentenced him for crimes he was never even tried for- but deserved a fair trial for. You appear to think I was saying the opposite of that?

by _yb2s 2y ago

azinman2 2y ago

Not going to comment on the murder part as that’s well discussed here. I would take issue with assuming that it was net positive with ratings. Given the anonymous nature handling bots spamming fake reviews would be even harder to catch here, and you ultimately don’t know who ended up addicted/hooked/DUI’s etc from the easy availability this provided. I’m not sure the total effects could ever be qualified, but it’s not like unadulterated drugs are automatically safe. Just look at how many lives pharma-grade opioids ruined, even though they were “safe”. That’s also not to mention guns and all kinds of other dangerous & illegal parts of it. I do not understand why he pardoned this guy when he’s supposedly anti-drug and anti-cartel.

mtoner23 2y ago
i think this points to a bunch of weird crypto people are actually in charge of a lot of this administration
- etc-hosts 2y ago
  Marc Andreessen and Ben Horowitz have significant influence on staffing. Vivek Ramaswamy is a partner at a16z
grayhatter 2y ago
> I do not understand why he pardoned this guy when he’s supposedly anti-drug and anti-cartel. why do you believe he's anti-drug or anti-cartel?
- azinman2 2y ago
  Well, he just did an executive order to label cartels as foreign terrorists, and has spoken at length about drugs in many of his speeches. Not sure why you think such a statement is controversial.
  - hedora 2y ago
    He made sure the Sacklers could keep their fortunes and continue to sell opioids.
  - grayhatter 2y ago
    Because I don't think he has a honestly held belief about anything. I think he's happy to do whatever is most expedient for his interests. He wants to be known as a guy who trades favors, so here, he ignored all the previous fear mongering about [scary thing], and is repaying the favor to the "libertarian party" who wanted this, and voted for him. Almost everything he says is just for show, fits his pattern of behavior better than, "he believes [thing he said]" does. I just read another article about how the person who says we need to follow "law and order" and "respect police" just pardoned everybody convicted of violence against police... again, trading favors instead of consistently following something he said.
- nozzlegear 2y ago
  I'm no Trump fan and won't go to bat for him, but being anti-drug and anti-cartel is literally one of his schticks.
  - grayhatter 2y ago
    I replied with more details in a sister thread but calling it a schtick is more accurate that I think you meant. It's exclusively a shtick; he doesn't actually believe it, or care about it.
_yb2s 2y ago
> I would take issue with assuming that it was net positive with ratings. I know this is probably as minority view, but I think if adults consent to buying and using any drug, that should be both fully legal, and their right and responsibility- any negative consequences are 100% their own fault, not the person who sold them. It's probably true that making drugs easier to buy made more people buy them, but I was only considering the ill effects of fraudulently adulterated products. Do the math differently if you don't see it this way. I don't know how Silk Road was designed, and have never actually used it or anything like it- but I imagine it would be possible to eliminate fraudulent reviews with proper design, and they may have done so. eBay, for example, is almost free of fraudulent reviews because posting a single review is very expensive- you'd need to sell an item to yourself for full price, and then pay eBay their full (rather large) cut to post a single fraudulent review. As a buyer, you should be able to take a single high effort review that contains something like mass spec chemical analysis results, and further confirm that the reviewer themselves has a credible history of making purchases and reviews broadly across a lot of different sellers. An impossibly expensive to fake signal. This could also be done automatically by the platform- by making the more credible reviews display first. > I do not understand why he pardoned this guy when he’s supposedly anti-drug and anti-cartel. I explained this in another comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42787217 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42787217 Trump is not an idealist- he will promise anything to anyone if it gets power and attention. Previously, he had attempted a political career as a leftist, and switched to the right because it was getting more traction.
- azinman2 2y ago
  Re-consenting: this is a different argument than saying more lives were saved because the reviews would remove adulterated products. Again, just look at opioid addiction for very clear evidence of the opposite effect. It is very clear from what you’ve said that you haven’t used it :) I have browsed it when it was active and I was very pro tor. You’re making a lot of assumptions that simply don’t hold for silk road.
  - _yb2s 2y ago
    > Again, just look at opioid addiction for very clear evidence of the opposite effect. I was playing devil's advocate, but agree there is more culpability to a seller if the drug overwhelms your ability to make the choice in the first place- however a lot of very illegal drugs do not do this. More so if you're using emotionally manipulative ads and selling methods as the alcohol and pharma industry do.
hedora 2y ago
Historically, many anti-drug / anti-cartel leaders are actually members of a rival cartel, and want to use law enforcement to fight their wars for them. The Mexican government has a long history of this. The LAPD’s (well documented for over 50 years) do the same thing. Trump is a convicted felon with lots of ties to organized crime. Nothing about him pardoning members of some criminal organizations but not others is surprising. In related news, he signed an executive order forcing prosecutors to seek the death penalty when police are killed, and in the same day pardoned 132 of his supporters that were convicted of assaulting police officers during an event where officers were killed.
- azinman2 2y ago
  You think Trump is involved with drug selling organized crime, and this guy somehow was on “his side”?
- reverendsteveii 2y ago
  >he signed an executive order forcing prosecutors to seek the death penalty when police are killed He also pardoned a drug dealing cop killer at the end of his last term. Said cop killer has since been arrested for attempting to strangle his wife to death. https://www.wesh.com/article/cop-killer-pardoned-by-trump-commits-new-crime-in-florida/62073373 https://www.wesh.com/article/cop-killer-pardoned-by-trump-co...
- motorest 2y ago
  > Historically, many anti-drug / anti-cartel leaders are actually members of a rival cartel, and want to use law enforcement to fight their wars for them. For reference, Rudy Giuliani was lauded as the anti-organized mayor that brought down the Italian mob in New York, but ultimately was flagged as actually being an upper echelon of Russian organized crime who worked to establish it by eliminating competiton. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudy_Giuliani https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudy_Giuliani
  - Maxatar 2y ago
    The Wikipedia article does not flag Giuliani as being a member of Russian organized crime, but someone who Giuliani's law firm represents, an individual by the name of Dmytry Firtash. Furthermore the timeline for this is over a decade after Giuliani was mayor of New York.
rmah 2y ago
Well, now you probably understand that Trump is not really anti-drug/anti-cartel. Nor do I think he's pro-drug/pro-cartel. I think he doesn't actually care except in how those issues affect his political career and public profile. Many of Trump's more ... let's call them "random" seeming statements and actions make much more sense if you look at them through the lens of "he doesn't actually care one way or the other".
- Slava_Propanei 2y ago
  [dead]
- kmeisthax 2y ago
  Trump is pro-Trump. That's it.
  - markhahn 2y ago
    Well, also pro-publicity and pro-distraction (firehose). Of course those are ultimately self-benefiting too.
diggan 2y ago
> That’s also not to mention guns and all kinds of other dangerous & illegal parts of it. I think it isn't mentioned because Silk Road didn't actually facilitate any selling/buying of weapons or any items "whose purpose was to "harm or defraud."" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silk_Road_(marketplace)#Products https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silk_Road_(marketplace)#Produc... > I do not understand why he pardoned this guy when he’s supposedly anti-drug and anti-cartel. He's the candidate that was preferred by Christians, yet probably he was the least Christian-like candidate. Just today/yesterday he criticized a Bishop for values that are clearly Christian, people seem to swallow it. I'm pretty sure trying to add logic/reasoning to the choices he makes is a lost cause.
- zombiwoof 2y ago
  Facebook doesn’t make the comments that will kill people
  - banku_brougham 2y ago
    Probably the first social media genocide was organized on Facebook, the Rohingya genocide. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohingya_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohingya_genocide
    - diggan 2y ago
      Similarly, the first social media revolutions were also organized on Facebook (and Twitter): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Spring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Spring
  - toasterlovin 2y ago
    "Facebook is a communication tool for friends and family that is sometimes used for illegal activity" is categorically different than "Silk Road is a tool created to facilitate illegal activity."
- azinman2 2y ago
  I saw guns on it when I joined years ago.
napkin 2y ago
(SWIM’s experience with Silk Road): For LSD there existed a third-party forum, where a group of (supposedly) vendor-neutral, unaffiliated individuals would purchase samples from vendors, send them to private or state-sponsored labs around the world and publish/discuss the results (often with online links to lab results). Yes, of course vendors could have also attempted to infiltrate these forums. But as enough of these functions were provided by/for the community, the profit incentive tilts. If you ran a vendor account on the Silk Road, your effort was better spent maintaining/improving good infosec and mail/postal security. Some techniques they developed were quite innovative, the professionalism was evident. Ross’s story is fascinating and tragic- as everything that’s said for and against his character is generally true. Silk Road was built on naive yet admirable ideals. It fostered a special community, some of which really did reflect those ideals. He got in over his head, and really did try to have someone killed. Though, the details on that latter point are a bit more complicated- authorities had infiltrated Ross’s inner circle- the motive and the ‘hitman’ himself were fictional. Ross still took the bait though, which is pretty damning. Until that point, they weren’t sure they had a sufficient case on him.
- _yb2s 2y ago
  Is that why they never prosecuted the attempted murder? It sounds like entrapment. That's the point people don't seem to be getting about anonymous reviews- if the review is more costly than the value it provides the seller, they won't do it, and it's fairly easy to make that the case. A separate enthusiast forum where the reviews are from people with a long history of high effort engagement is a good example of that. That's basically the idea behind crypto as well- making false transactions is more expensive than the value it could return.
  - rtkwe 2y ago
    Entrapment requires some coercive/persuasive force by the government to push you to commit the crime, the government is allowed to setup entirely fake scenarios and let you choose to do a crime.
    - 2y ago
armandososa 2y ago
he is just anti-mexico.
hinkley 2y ago
Something anyone with an addict in their life needs to know: While substances can efficiently help someone destroy their life, keeping them away from drugs won’t stop them from destroying their lives. There’s something already broken in these people that they need to fix before it’s too late. There are perfectly legal alternatives that can be just as effective with a little more effort. Putting heroin in your arm is just quicker than downing a fifth of vodka, or chasing dopamine at the dog track.
- Willish42 2y ago
  I think you're advocating for better mental health care and rehabilitation of addicts, which I agree with. However, the idea that addicts will destroy their lives regardless of whether they stop using, or are forced to stop using, their drug of choice is an extremely dangerous statement. Many addicts get better by changing their environment and quitting/going to rehab/etc. Furthermore, heroin != vodka in terms of how addictive it is for the average user, and that's partly why only one of them is legal for recreational use. Controversies about decriminalization aside, harm reduction exists as a studied component in addiction, public health, and psychology circles for a reason.
  - dgfitz 2y ago
    Alcohol destroys many, many more lives than heroin. Isn’t even close.
    - lolinder 2y ago
      The important question isn't raw numbers, it's which destroys a greater percentage of lives out of those who consume it. If heroin were as widespread as alcohol, would it still be true that alcohol destroys more lives? We obviously can't know for sure without trying it, but preliminary results aren't promising.
- snailmailstare 2y ago
  Yeah, I don't know. There's certainly people that are just broken, but reading other examples, I think there are plenty of people who just happen on to a perfect addiction(, or maybe an imperfect one that fills the spot). The manifest destiny stuff is kind of a mix that soothes a lot of people with various motives whether or not it is representative of the median case.
sweeter 2y ago
Its purely transactional. The Libertarians gave him their endorsement and one of the things they wanted in return was this pardon and deregulation.
- azinman2 2y ago
  The libertarian party or a bunch of crypto bros? I don’t get why “libertarians” would care about this one guy?
  - etc-hosts 2y ago
    Ulbricht's career represents many core values of a certain wing of today's Libertarians. * unfettered and unregulated and anonymous weapons sales. * willful ignorance and rejection of any of the social costs of buying and selling hard drugs. * commerce that operates in a world that is difficult to be taxes by government entities, and ideally anonymously (even though bitcoin is the least anonymous thing in the world)
    - azinman2 2y ago
      So are libertarians fighting for complete legalization of drugs? If so, why aren’t they pressing on Trump for that? Why wasn’t that an executive order vs pardoning this guy?
      - etc-hosts 2y ago
        I don't think Trump actually has a lot of Core Beliefs besides do stuff that appears strong on tv. A large portion of people at the Libertarian convention that Trump gave a speech at would prefer complete legalization of all drugs. I think it's a belief that a lot of us arrive at early in our lives, many eventually grow out of it.
        azinman2 2y ago
        > I think it's a belief that a lot of us arrive at early in our lives, many eventually grow out of it. Very astute. What’s interesting to me is the ability for youth to discount this potential change, mostly because they just see the end result vs the journey. I know I was like that.
Beijinger 2y ago
It was a promise to his libertarian voters....
dutchbookmaker 2y ago
I can only go off what I read in American Kingpin but from that book, to pardon Ulbricht is absolutely insane. Not to mention lets compare what Ulbricht did to say Snowden? Are you kidding me? It is like we live in some idiot version of the Twilight Zone.

johnwheeler 2y ago

The guy is a crook.

garyfirestorm 2y ago

They can try now! Because he is pardoned for the existing convictions not for future convictions

_yb2s 2y ago
That is interesting. I'd suspect he could possibly be found guilty of attempted murder, and have the sentence reduced or eliminated by arguing that his previous sentence unjustly assumed guilt for this as well, and factored it into the sentence he already served. If I remember correctly, there were comments from both the prosecution and judge that would basically prove that point- and they allowed evidence related to those other crimes in the trial. If they could prove this misconduct, they may even be able to argue double jeopardy.
- etc-hosts 2y ago
  There was deliberately no mention of the alleged murders-for-hire during the trial. The judge said during sentencing that she was giving Ulbricht an incredibly harsh sentence to make an example of him to others who think that facilitating selling drugs is a victimless crime, and she was also angry at the huge stack of nice letters that people sent to the court in support of Ulbricht.
sebzim4500 2y ago
Good luck, when the main investigators have since gone to prison for crimes related to this investigation.
hedora 2y ago
Unless Trump screwed up the paper work, he’ll have been pardoned for past crimes, which includes the murder.
- nozzlegear 2y ago
  And even if he did screw up the paper work, he could just write another pardon anyway. He can write infinite pardons (for federal charges, anyway).

Pxtl 2y ago

> I'd also argue he almost certainly saved a huge number of lives with Silk Road: the ability to view eBay style feedback and chemical test results makes buying illegal drugs far safer than buying them on the street. So will the Trump admin be making any moves on legalization or safe supply? Especially since between Musk and Kennedy's admitted drug use, the white house pharmacy report, and the allegations about the Trump family itself, it seems obvious that the White House appreciates the usefulness of illegal stimulants? Or is this another case of "in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect"?

smeeger 2y ago

the benefit wasnt really unique to silk road or ross. it was just a very convoluted, roundabout demonstration of how safe drug use can be when its done in the right environment. legalization would be even safer…

trey-jones 2y ago
Safer for buyers and users I guess. Based on being able to smell marijuana coming from so many car windows just walking around town, I'm not sure it would be safer for the public. I'm not anti-legalization by the way - I think it's similar to gambling: a mixed bag.

doctorpangloss 2y ago

You are feeling the same thing that some people felt who wanted OJ Simpson exonerated.

no-dr-onboard 2y ago
How so?
- doctorpangloss 2y ago
  Okay, another comparison would be, everyone who wants Luigi Mangione exonerated also is feeling what some people felt when they wanted OJ Simpson to be exonerated. Do you see now?
  - zarzavat 2y ago
    Luigi is a symptom of an overly inactive justice system, if you don't prosecute crimes then some people take the law into their own hands (as a matter of fact). Preventing vigilantism is why having a working justice system is important to a functioning society. DPR is according to his defenders a symptom of an overly active justice system prosecuting crimes that shouldn't be prosecuted. Though I'm not sure I personally agree with that. OJ was just a crook.
    - jdminhbg 2y ago
      The Luigi some people have constructed in their minds is a symptom of an overly inactive justice system. The Luigi of real life is the symptom of a man suffering a psychotic break.
    - doctorpangloss 2y ago
      See, you are one of the people who feels about Luigi Mangione what some people felt about OJ Simpson. You’re getting it. You can read about how some people talked about OJ Simpson’s supposed innocence, it is exactly the same energy.

karlzt 2y ago

As for the murder part Christina Warren knows best: The murder for hire bit was always the most bullshit of all the charges. Not only were the fbi agents that were part of that later jailed for their own actions related to the case (including theft and hiding/deleting evidence), it was never real and no one was ever in danger. https://bsky.app/profile/filmgirl.bsky.social/post/3lgcck6i6e22d https://bsky.app/profile/filmgirl.bsky.social/post/3lgcck6i6...

verteu 2y ago
> it was never real and no one was ever in danger. Because one of the hitmen he hired was a scammer, and another was an FBI agent. Still clearly a crime to hire them for murder. Ulbricht's right-hand-man Roger Thomas Clark, who was involved in one of the murder-for-hire conversations, admitted the conversation was real during his trial: "In his own remarks, Clark didn't comment on that murder-for-hire conversation—which he at one point claimed had been fabricated by Ulbricht but later conceded was real."
selfmodruntime 2y ago
Wow! There have been multiple (astoundingly so) arrests of agents who were present in the Silk Road case. As far as I can see: 1 DEA agent for extortion, money laundering and fraud. 1 Secret Service Agent for money laundering. 2 Key advisors in the case.
chandler5555 2y ago
that was only one of the 6 murder for hires Chris Tarbell, the guy who arrested ross, talks about it on this podcast https://risky.biz/RB770/ https://risky.biz/RB770/ 37:08
- defrost 2y ago
  Chris Tarbell states that there are logs about 6 imaginary "murder of hire"'s .. none of which actually took place, two were faked by the FBI(?) and four were scams run by third parties outside the USA. In the absence of any other context it's assumed these were acts of "intent to murder" but that's about it .. logs that look like a duck and probably were a duck. But no actual murders that anyone could find, no bodies, etc.

billiam 2y ago

I just can't fathom the lack of self-awareness of people who championed Ross Ulbricht's cause, seemingly because he looks like them, codes like them, and sat in the same public library they frequent or became associated with a techno-libertarian identity. Hundreds of drug and gun dealers are sentenced every week, some certainly unjustly. Where is the outrage for them?

doctorpangloss 2y ago
Ha ha, it turns out that there is affirmative action, for libertarians!
stickfigure 2y ago
Those people that championed Ulbricht's cause are for the most part also the people championing the cause of drug dealers and other victims of New Prohibition. If you genuinely care about this cause, you might ask yourself whether alienating other supporters is the best approach. If you're just looking for someone to feel superior about, find another forum.
- sonotathrowaway 2y ago
  <citation needed>
mcv 2y ago
My impression is that a big part of the outrage is directed not at the conviction, but at the disproportionate sentence. I'm not surprised or upset at all that he went to prison, but unless I'm missing a ton of details (and I probably am), 12 years is plenty for what he did.
- etc-hosts 2y ago
  It's the scale of the crime (he facilitated 10s of thousands of transactions), the judge clearly stated she wanted to make an example of him and give pause to anyone thinking about doing something similar in the future, and she was angry at the many of the letters of support Ulbricht's fans family and friends sent the court. My memory is she started the sentencing hearing by disdainfully reading a few of them from a pile of them she brought to the court that day.

486683864 2y ago

There was literally no evidence of an attempted murder. Just an empty and unsubstantiated accusation.

etc-hosts 2y ago
The lengths the FBI went to in one of the murder for hire cases is interesting. After Ulbricht ordered the hit on one of his forum moderators, the FBI visited him, took all of his computers, told him they were going to be "him" from now on online forever, had him "pose" in a bathtub where they hosed him off and doused him in ketchup to take fake trophy photos, had the "hitman" send the photos of Ulbricht, who famously commented "It had to be done."
- 486683864 2y ago
  Did you just make that up? I have never heard that claim before and searching for Ross Ulbricht ketchup just leads back to your comment, so you seem to be the first person to ever claim this.
  - etc-hosts 2y ago
    You're right, the agents actually smeared him with Campbell’s Chicken & Stars to make him look he just got strangled. You got me! https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/04/how-the-feds-staged-torture-murder-of-a-silk-road-staffer/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/04/how-the-feds-sta... >Force got Green to sign a waiver, thereby commencing his role in an impromptu staged torture sting against DPR. Soon Green was being dunked in the bathtub of a Marriott suite by phony thugs who were in fact a Secret Service agent and a Baltimore postal inspector. Force recorded the action on a camera. “Did you get it?” Green asked, wet and wheezing on the floor. He’d felt like their simulation was a little too accurate. They dunked him four more times to get a convincing shot. There used to be an online archive of every little bit of public information known about the Silk Road's administrators and their court cases. I can't find it anymore. It was over 10 years ago. All I can remember is the site had a weird url.

Beijinger 2y ago

"for the crime he was actually found guilty of, the sentence was unfair and unreasonable." Was it? Based on current law in the US? While I do not know English Common law well, in many jurisdictions, every part of the drug dealing is drug dealing. Even if you never touch a drug and just provide payment processing services, transport or whatever, as long as you are aware of it and profit from it, it is drug dealing. So every transaction on Silk Road would also be his crime. And there were many, many many. On the other hand, for non-first degree murder, in several jurisdictions his sentence would have maxed out at 15 years. First time offender, he could have walked after 10.

blitzar 2y ago
In most of Asia the sentence would have been death (back to back multiple sentences if that is possible).

some_random 2y ago

The cybersecurity podcast Risky Business interviewed an FBI agent who was deeply involved, I'd highly recommend listening to it if you want that perspective. If I remember correctly, the agents who were investigating the murder for hire stuff were later found to have been stealing some of the bitcoin they were confiscating and the prosecutors fro the Ulbricht case decided they didn't need to bring up those charges to get a conviction (which they obviously didn't).

chandler5555 2y ago
yup. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7iPp5QaHmI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7iPp5QaHmI , starts at 36 minutes or so the bitcoin stealing was only one of the 6 murder for hires, so even if you think thats invalidated, there were still 5 others

kylebenzle 2y ago

What you are saying is nothing short of the manifestation of pure evil. Innocent until proven guilty, not guilty until a random hunch is resolved. The federal government has a long history of manufacturing evidence and this is no different. Again, pure evil what you are saying.

_yb2s 2y ago
What are you talking about? I specifically said it was unethical that they seem to have sentenced him for crimes he was never even tried for- but deserved a fair trial for. You appear to think I was saying the opposite of that?