6 ms·

You didn't die of dysentery, for one.

by saulrh 2y ago

sneak 2y ago
[flagged]
- fzeroracer 2y ago
  > We don’t need the military-industrial complex to put down ashphalt or produce safe food. And whose going to check that the food being produced is safe?
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > whose going to check that the food being produced is safe? Honestly, we could do with less of this. It isn’t hard to tell if fresh food is safe. It’s impossible with hyper-processed nonsense. Increasing liability for producing unsafe processed food might be what we need to tip our food balance in a healthier direction.
    - tpm 2y ago
      > It isn’t hard to tell if fresh food is safe. You can tell if fresh salad has E. coli by the look of it? Or if fresh eggs contain Salmonella?
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > You can tell if fresh salad has E. coli by the look of it? You're right–I didn't think about fresh, prepared foods. > if fresh eggs contain Salmonella? Pasteurised eggs (washed in a factory, I'll note), no. Fresh eggs, hell yes--they smell and look weird.
        tpm 2y ago
        > You're right–I didn't think about fresh, prepared foods. If only that. What about lead salts added to spices for better color (red pepper, curcuma)? What about all the other billions of ways to cut costs and make food unsafe, who is going to check for that in the absence of governments? "Increasing liability" is incredibly naive, the perpetrators don't care about that if the chance they are not caught is high enough, which it is if food chain monitoring isn't continuous.
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > What about lead salts added to spices for better color (red pepper, curcuma)? Less of a problem with whole spices. > What about all the other billions of ways to cut costs and make food unsafe, who is going to check for that in the absence of governments? Local markets are good at sussing this out. We need federal regulation when supply (and thus trust) chains get longer. One of the best ways to undermine trust in the regulation we need is to over-regulate where we don't need to. RFK going off about raw milk is Exhibit A for this. Would I drink raw milk? No, particularly not with the bird flu ruminating in dairy cows. Do I think banning raw milk makes it more likely (on the margin) that in 10 years I'll be eating leaded spices? Yes. Note that I'm not arguing against food regulation as a whole. I'm arguing against its breadth at the federal level.
        tpm 2y ago
        > Less of a problem with whole spices. Very few people have the ability to properly mill dried red pepper at home. > Local markets are good at sussing this out. Unless it's long-acting toxins. Of which there are many.
        LunaSea 2y ago
        > You're right–I didn't think Exactly
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        You've never eaten an unregulated salad at a friend's?
        quesera 2y ago
        > Fresh eggs, hell yes--they smell and look weird You cannot reliably detect salmonella on a fresh egg with any human sense. At least not prior to consumption.
        fzeroracer 2y ago
        Can you explain to me your detection process for Salmonella?
- 0dayz 2y ago
  Instead of asking what the government can do for you, ask what the idea behind government programs are and what it seeks to overcome. Being ideologically captured "big goboment bad" is as bad as geopolitical analysis being "America bad".
- richrichardsson 2y ago
  You've overestated by more than a factor of two how many people are in the EU and willfully ignored the fact there IS a central goverment of sorts here too.
- DonHopkins 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - sneak 2y ago
    This sort of kneejerk culture war regurgitation mischaracterizes your argument, as well the people you are talking to, and undermines your own credibility. Separately, it adds positively nothing to the discussion except noise. The world isn’t as black and white as you seem to be convinced it is. Not everyone is neatly categorized into reasonable friend and nonsensical insane foe, unfortunately. Do you enjoy meaningless culture brawling in the comments? Does it provide you with some sort of emotional supply? It certainly isn’t accomplishing anything else (other than breaking the social contract here). I’m truly confused, on a purely intellectual level. (I don’t expect you to change or do anything differently, I am simply thoroughly baffled.)
    - tpm 2y ago
      Claiming there is no central government for 'billion people' 'in Europe' and then lashing out when someone engages you on the same level is a very positive addition to the discussion.
      - sneak 2y ago
        What lawmaking authority applies equally to people in Moscow and London? To Oslo and Cyprus?
        tpm 2y ago
        What lawmaking authority applies equally to people in Mexico City and Ottawa?
    - acdha 2y ago
      Your original question was also “culture war regurgitation” by any standard which includes the post you’re replying to. If you want better discourse, you have to start that way and bring receipts that you’re participating in well-informed good faith.
- radley 2y ago
  > How do the billion people in Europe do it? Last I checked, they use government. Two governments, I think.
  - tpm 2y ago
    At least two. In federations like Germany it's three. Plus local administrations.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      We’ve really gone full circle when the argument for less government is pointing to Europe, and the argument against the military-industrial complex is the guy directly arguing for more military spending.
- samastur 2y ago
  The whole military-industrial complex (defense industry) has about the same yearly revenues as Google. As others have already said, we Europeans do have central governments and there's fewer of us.
  - lazide 2y ago
    Direct military expenditures in the US amount to roughly $900billion to 1.2 trillion dollars/yr. [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_Unite...] Depending on how you slice things, and what you count as ‘military’. Based on the GOA, approx. $500 billion/yr (including veterans benefits) goes into actually running the military [https://www.cbo.gov/publication/59475 https://www.cbo.gov/publication/59475]. Much of that appears to be VA benefits, and it’s increasing. So the remainder (minus war bonds!) feels like the Military Industrial Complex, which seems to add up to around $500bln/yr. Google annual revenue appears to be up to approx. $282 billion/year now. So unlikely any MIC component is close, but overall the MIC still seems quite a bit larger.
    - samastur 2y ago
      Alphabet's revenue last year were about $340 billiion. 550 billion is just for compensation. You also need to pay for the upkeep of bases, fuel etc. MI complex probably still has larger revenues as Google, but difference is much smaller than you think and that is comparing the whole industry to just one tech giant. There are others with revenues as big or bigger.
      - lazide 2y ago
        Who provides the upkeep of bases, fuel, runs the contractors who run the equipment, provides the equipment itself, etc? The MIC. It isn’t just artillery shells. In general though, I agree. The tech industry is an absurdly valuable target. And thanks for the updated revenue numbers!
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- emptiestplace 2y ago
  > We don’t need the military-industrial complex I hope you realize that part isn't going anywhere any time soon.
  - lazide 2y ago
    It will stop going into at least somewhat plausibly effective weapons though. See what happened with Russia’s military for a preview.
- matwood 2y ago
  > We don’t need the military-industrial complex to put down ashphalt or produce safe food. Obviously blatant waste and fraud should not be tolerated, but ignoring the huge value of the military is very short sighted. When you hear the phrase, 'backed by the full faith and credit of the United States government', what do you think that means? The US has been in a privileged position for so long they don't even realize why they are there. People flock to the USD because of stability, rule of law, and the ability to park a carrier strike force off any coast in the world and project that 'full faith and credit' the US speaks of. The military is not solely responsible for the US's success, but it is a large part.
  - sneak 2y ago
    This is a meaningless phrase, much like “died for our sins”. Endless reptitions don’t make it into a meaningful logical statement. The only inherent value of the USD is that you can pay US taxes in it. The “full faith and credit” bit meant something when you had to trust the USG to redeem it for physical gold or silver, but as you know that hasn’t been the case for a long time. Now it’s about the same situation as the Tether fraud. Bitfinex doesnt need a carrier strike group for me to be able to trade USDT for cheeseburgers or gold coins. People talking about the rule of law in the USA this week are especially comical. The graft and corruption are on full display for the entire world stage. They’re not even pretending any longer. It is now demonstrably clear that the value of the USD is not dependent on the rule of law in the US.
    - selectodude 2y ago
      > They’re not even pretending any longer. It is now demonstrably clear that the value of the USD is not dependent on the rule of law in the US. I assure you if people who matter start agreeing with you, we’re all in for a really, really bad time.
  - scarface_74 2y ago
    And to add on, even the military brass is not in favor of wasted spending of the military industrial complex. The military itself has been trying to close unneeded bases, get rid of weapons it doesn’t need, etc. But Congress and the rest of the civilian leadership won’t let it because the civilian leadership is more interested in kickbacks from contractors than doing what is best for the military. Military leadership has also been warning about the destabilizing effect of climate change and the dangers of our deficit.
- ludwik 2y ago
  > I didn’t die of being trampled by unicorns either I think this comment is incredibly telling. Many people tend to treat problems that do not currently affect them because of the momentous, coordinated efforts of many individuals and institutions the same as problems that do not affect them because they are naturally nonexistent. There is a huge difference between these two categories of problems. The first will become very visible when the constant behind-the-scenes work is no longer maintained. The second will not. Confusing these two seems to be one of the causes of the mess we currently find ourselves in. > How do the billion people in Europe do it? As a European, I can help with the conundrum: we DO have central governments, and they tend to take more responsibility for taking care of people than the U.S. federal government has ever been allowed to. Governments don't have to be continent-wide to exist.
markdown 2y ago
Or food poisoning from drinking milk.
- jibcage 2y ago
  Yes, alright, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what has the federal government ever done for us?
  - t-3 2y ago
    My local government runs all those, federal just provides the funding. Redistribution of tax proceeds is enough of a job to excuse everything else for you?
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > My local government runs all those Your local government runs all your roads, canals, railroads and public order? Even the largest cities in America parcel that out to the federal government.
      - t-3 2y ago
        Well, we don't really have much in the way of canals or railroads, but they do the actual maintenance and construction of roads in the first place. They also enforce the traffic laws (which they also set for the most part), maintain and install the signage, etc. The local and state police are obviously run by local government. Federal police are obviously not.
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > we don't really have much in the way of canals or railroads How do goods get into and out of your town? Are you connected to a grid? Do you use GPS?
throwaway346434 2y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9foi342LXQE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9foi342LXQE comes to mind!

You didn't die of dysentery, for one.

by saulrh 2y ago

You didn't die of dysentery, for one.

sneak 2y ago

[flagged]

fzeroracer 2y ago
> We don’t need the military-industrial complex to put down ashphalt or produce safe food. And whose going to check that the food being produced is safe?
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > whose going to check that the food being produced is safe? Honestly, we could do with less of this. It isn’t hard to tell if fresh food is safe. It’s impossible with hyper-processed nonsense. Increasing liability for producing unsafe processed food might be what we need to tip our food balance in a healthier direction.
  - tpm 2y ago
    > It isn’t hard to tell if fresh food is safe. You can tell if fresh salad has E. coli by the look of it? Or if fresh eggs contain Salmonella?
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > You can tell if fresh salad has E. coli by the look of it? You're right–I didn't think about fresh, prepared foods. > if fresh eggs contain Salmonella? Pasteurised eggs (washed in a factory, I'll note), no. Fresh eggs, hell yes--they smell and look weird.
      - tpm 2y ago
        > You're right–I didn't think about fresh, prepared foods. If only that. What about lead salts added to spices for better color (red pepper, curcuma)? What about all the other billions of ways to cut costs and make food unsafe, who is going to check for that in the absence of governments? "Increasing liability" is incredibly naive, the perpetrators don't care about that if the chance they are not caught is high enough, which it is if food chain monitoring isn't continuous.
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > What about lead salts added to spices for better color (red pepper, curcuma)? Less of a problem with whole spices. > What about all the other billions of ways to cut costs and make food unsafe, who is going to check for that in the absence of governments? Local markets are good at sussing this out. We need federal regulation when supply (and thus trust) chains get longer. One of the best ways to undermine trust in the regulation we need is to over-regulate where we don't need to. RFK going off about raw milk is Exhibit A for this. Would I drink raw milk? No, particularly not with the bird flu ruminating in dairy cows. Do I think banning raw milk makes it more likely (on the margin) that in 10 years I'll be eating leaded spices? Yes. Note that I'm not arguing against food regulation as a whole. I'm arguing against its breadth at the federal level.
        tpm 2y ago
        > Less of a problem with whole spices. Very few people have the ability to properly mill dried red pepper at home. > Local markets are good at sussing this out. Unless it's long-acting toxins. Of which there are many.
      - LunaSea 2y ago
        > You're right–I didn't think Exactly
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        You've never eaten an unregulated salad at a friend's?
      - quesera 2y ago
        > Fresh eggs, hell yes--they smell and look weird You cannot reliably detect salmonella on a fresh egg with any human sense. At least not prior to consumption.
      - fzeroracer 2y ago
        Can you explain to me your detection process for Salmonella?
0dayz 2y ago
Instead of asking what the government can do for you, ask what the idea behind government programs are and what it seeks to overcome. Being ideologically captured "big goboment bad" is as bad as geopolitical analysis being "America bad".
richrichardsson 2y ago
You've overestated by more than a factor of two how many people are in the EU and willfully ignored the fact there IS a central goverment of sorts here too.
DonHopkins 2y ago
[flagged]
- sneak 2y ago
  This sort of kneejerk culture war regurgitation mischaracterizes your argument, as well the people you are talking to, and undermines your own credibility. Separately, it adds positively nothing to the discussion except noise. The world isn’t as black and white as you seem to be convinced it is. Not everyone is neatly categorized into reasonable friend and nonsensical insane foe, unfortunately. Do you enjoy meaningless culture brawling in the comments? Does it provide you with some sort of emotional supply? It certainly isn’t accomplishing anything else (other than breaking the social contract here). I’m truly confused, on a purely intellectual level. (I don’t expect you to change or do anything differently, I am simply thoroughly baffled.)
  - tpm 2y ago
    Claiming there is no central government for 'billion people' 'in Europe' and then lashing out when someone engages you on the same level is a very positive addition to the discussion.
    - sneak 2y ago
      What lawmaking authority applies equally to people in Moscow and London? To Oslo and Cyprus?
      - tpm 2y ago
        What lawmaking authority applies equally to people in Mexico City and Ottawa?
  - acdha 2y ago
    Your original question was also “culture war regurgitation” by any standard which includes the post you’re replying to. If you want better discourse, you have to start that way and bring receipts that you’re participating in well-informed good faith.
radley 2y ago
> How do the billion people in Europe do it? Last I checked, they use government. Two governments, I think.
- tpm 2y ago
  At least two. In federations like Germany it's three. Plus local administrations.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    We’ve really gone full circle when the argument for less government is pointing to Europe, and the argument against the military-industrial complex is the guy directly arguing for more military spending.
samastur 2y ago
The whole military-industrial complex (defense industry) has about the same yearly revenues as Google. As others have already said, we Europeans do have central governments and there's fewer of us.
- lazide 2y ago
  Direct military expenditures in the US amount to roughly $900billion to 1.2 trillion dollars/yr. [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_Unite...] Depending on how you slice things, and what you count as ‘military’. Based on the GOA, approx. $500 billion/yr (including veterans benefits) goes into actually running the military [https://www.cbo.gov/publication/59475 https://www.cbo.gov/publication/59475]. Much of that appears to be VA benefits, and it’s increasing. So the remainder (minus war bonds!) feels like the Military Industrial Complex, which seems to add up to around $500bln/yr. Google annual revenue appears to be up to approx. $282 billion/year now. So unlikely any MIC component is close, but overall the MIC still seems quite a bit larger.
  - samastur 2y ago
    Alphabet's revenue last year were about $340 billiion. 550 billion is just for compensation. You also need to pay for the upkeep of bases, fuel etc. MI complex probably still has larger revenues as Google, but difference is much smaller than you think and that is comparing the whole industry to just one tech giant. There are others with revenues as big or bigger.
    - lazide 2y ago
      Who provides the upkeep of bases, fuel, runs the contractors who run the equipment, provides the equipment itself, etc? The MIC. It isn’t just artillery shells. In general though, I agree. The tech industry is an absurdly valuable target. And thanks for the updated revenue numbers!
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
emptiestplace 2y ago
> We don’t need the military-industrial complex I hope you realize that part isn't going anywhere any time soon.
- lazide 2y ago
  It will stop going into at least somewhat plausibly effective weapons though. See what happened with Russia’s military for a preview.
matwood 2y ago
> We don’t need the military-industrial complex to put down ashphalt or produce safe food. Obviously blatant waste and fraud should not be tolerated, but ignoring the huge value of the military is very short sighted. When you hear the phrase, 'backed by the full faith and credit of the United States government', what do you think that means? The US has been in a privileged position for so long they don't even realize why they are there. People flock to the USD because of stability, rule of law, and the ability to park a carrier strike force off any coast in the world and project that 'full faith and credit' the US speaks of. The military is not solely responsible for the US's success, but it is a large part.
- sneak 2y ago
  This is a meaningless phrase, much like “died for our sins”. Endless reptitions don’t make it into a meaningful logical statement. The only inherent value of the USD is that you can pay US taxes in it. The “full faith and credit” bit meant something when you had to trust the USG to redeem it for physical gold or silver, but as you know that hasn’t been the case for a long time. Now it’s about the same situation as the Tether fraud. Bitfinex doesnt need a carrier strike group for me to be able to trade USDT for cheeseburgers or gold coins. People talking about the rule of law in the USA this week are especially comical. The graft and corruption are on full display for the entire world stage. They’re not even pretending any longer. It is now demonstrably clear that the value of the USD is not dependent on the rule of law in the US.
  - selectodude 2y ago
    > They’re not even pretending any longer. It is now demonstrably clear that the value of the USD is not dependent on the rule of law in the US. I assure you if people who matter start agreeing with you, we’re all in for a really, really bad time.
- scarface_74 2y ago
  And to add on, even the military brass is not in favor of wasted spending of the military industrial complex. The military itself has been trying to close unneeded bases, get rid of weapons it doesn’t need, etc. But Congress and the rest of the civilian leadership won’t let it because the civilian leadership is more interested in kickbacks from contractors than doing what is best for the military. Military leadership has also been warning about the destabilizing effect of climate change and the dangers of our deficit.
ludwik 2y ago
> I didn’t die of being trampled by unicorns either I think this comment is incredibly telling. Many people tend to treat problems that do not currently affect them because of the momentous, coordinated efforts of many individuals and institutions the same as problems that do not affect them because they are naturally nonexistent. There is a huge difference between these two categories of problems. The first will become very visible when the constant behind-the-scenes work is no longer maintained. The second will not. Confusing these two seems to be one of the causes of the mess we currently find ourselves in. > How do the billion people in Europe do it? As a European, I can help with the conundrum: we DO have central governments, and they tend to take more responsibility for taking care of people than the U.S. federal government has ever been allowed to. Governments don't have to be continent-wide to exist.

markdown 2y ago

Or food poisoning from drinking milk.

jibcage 2y ago
Yes, alright, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what has the federal government ever done for us?
- t-3 2y ago
  My local government runs all those, federal just provides the funding. Redistribution of tax proceeds is enough of a job to excuse everything else for you?
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > My local government runs all those Your local government runs all your roads, canals, railroads and public order? Even the largest cities in America parcel that out to the federal government.
    - t-3 2y ago
      Well, we don't really have much in the way of canals or railroads, but they do the actual maintenance and construction of roads in the first place. They also enforce the traffic laws (which they also set for the most part), maintain and install the signage, etc. The local and state police are obviously run by local government. Federal police are obviously not.
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > we don't really have much in the way of canals or railroads How do goods get into and out of your town? Are you connected to a grid? Do you use GPS?

throwaway346434 2y ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9foi342LXQE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9foi342LXQE comes to mind!