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I think the attacks on some of these black and gray markets has increased violent crime in the real world. I wish the federal government would stop shutting th

I think the attacks on some of these black and gray markets has increased violent crime in the real world. I wish the federal government would stop shutting them down and instead use them as tools to build cases against people breaking the law. For example, for a while most prostitution and sex work seemed to be online, on places like Craigslist right next to ads for used furniture and jobs. And it seemed to be really effective in getting prostitutes off the streets. Now that those markets were shut down, I'm seeing here in Seattle we're having pimp shootouts on Aurora and the prostitutes are more brazen than ever. Going after Craigslist has had a negative effect on our cities and has increased crime, and I suspect going after SilkRoad has had a similar impact.

bloudermilk 2y ago
I don't think much changed, really. The contraband and services offered on these marketplaces has always been backed by criminal enterprises. Mostly the markets provided level of indirection that made purchasing palatable and gave a false sense of safety.
- anon84873628 2y ago
  Sure, but the point is about secondary effects. If pimps are "competing" online then they need to compete on, well, marketing and UX. If they compete in real life then it is about who controls physical territory. There are lots of studies about the unintended consequences of prohibition.
- joe_the_user 2y ago
  Online markets for sex work allowed women to operate far more safely than "the street" allow. I had friends who were affected by the crackdown on craigslist etc.
  - bloudermilk 2y ago
    I sincerely didn't mean to minimize the harm to sex workers, which is devastating. My point is rather that an online marketplace in the absence of decriminalization and reform can only provide a marginal increase in safety. Sex workers marketing on Backpage, Craigslist, Onlyfans, and IG still face a great deal of risk of violence, pressure from pimps, and prosecution by law enforcement. It's a deeply complex systematic issue which can't be fixed by a website. For drugs in particular, darknet marketplaces primarily rely on unspeakably violent criminal enterprises upstream. The consumers, sellers, and communities implicated in this supply chain are all losers in this system. The cartels are the winners and the global "war on drugs" establishment are a close second place.
    - idunnoman1222 2y ago
      Well, the cartels own most of the avocados so why don’t you think about that next time you go shopping?
    - joe_the_user 2y ago
      I sympathize with the call for decriminalization. Still, in the case of sex work, I think you are simply wrong. Your overall sketch is the "movie version" or police/puritanical version of sex work, a version that equates trafficking and voluntary transactions (not that those transactions can't exploitative in other ways). The majority sex work isn't filled with violence except on the level of the literal street. Notably, my friends and acquaintances who used Craigslist back in the day didn't deal with any pimps and a moment's thought would show pimps are only needed when someone sells sex at a physical location. Also, afaik, onlyfans is a virtual only platform so workers there face the same physical dangers as people on zoom calls. Drugs is a more complex beast.
      - toasterlovin 2y ago
        > a moment's thought would show pimps are only needed when someone sells sex at a physical location Pimps are needed whenever there is coercion involved. It seems unlikely to me that only street prostitution requires coercion. I think we'll soon learn that most of the women on OnlyFans are there because of a violent and manipulative man.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        johnnyanmac 2y ago
        OF is about as decentralized as a "sex service" as you can get, so I'd wager you'd be very wrong there. But yes, it can and does happen. Any system offering freedom can offer just as much freedom to those who coerce others.
      - bloudermilk 2y ago
        Thank you for the kind elaboration. I wonder if you could share any writing on the social justice issues surrounding sex work? My knowledge is limited and informed by only a few pieces I've read over the years.
- aftbit 2y ago
  Ask an actual sex worker what they think about that.
- outside415 2y ago
  [flagged]
- brohee 2y ago
  Illegal online marketplaces absolutely do reduce "turf wars". It's argueable that there is harm reduction compared to street dealing. Then I suspect it creates new consumers so there is that too.
cogman10 2y ago
I wish instead of criminalizing addiction we'd fund harm reduction centers and rehabilitation services. I would much rather the police be focused on stopping violent crime rather than these victimless crimes. Legitimizing drugs/prostitution makes is easier to regulate and ultimately make safer. Shoving this stuff into a black/gray market is what ultimately creates violent crime.
- rib3ye 2y ago
  > I wish instead of criminalizing addiction we'd fund harm reduction centers and rehabilitation services. We tried that in SF, I was a supporter. Seeing it first hand with a with a family member in public school flipped me. Dumping money into people who aren't ready to convert back into tax payers (even in the most basic sense) while schools got the back burner was enough. Not to mention the tents.
  - cogman10 2y ago
    > Seeing it first hand with a with a family member in public school flipped me. Why is this an either or? SF spends about $1 billion dollars on schools [1] and while the program ran it had around a $40 million dollar budget [2]. For an area that houses huge tech companies, this doesn't seem like an extreme budget to be working with. > Not to mention the tents. Ok? And what options would you give these people, just be homeless somewhere else where you can't see them? [1] https://www.sfusd.edu/about-sfusd/sfusd-news/press-releases/2024-06-27-sf-board-education-adopts-plan-and-budget-2024-25-school-year https://www.sfusd.edu/about-sfusd/sfusd-news/press-releases/... [2] https://sfstandard.com/2021/11/17/supervisors-approve-6-5m-increase-to-harm-reduction-contract-but-raise-questions-on-outcomes/ https://sfstandard.com/2021/11/17/supervisors-approve-6-5m-i...
    - daseiner1 2y ago
      SF spends nearly $1B on the homeless.
      - nine_k 2y ago
user3939382 2y ago
I think you meant decreased crime, judging by the context of the rest of your comment.
pawelmurias 2y ago
Pimps dying is great. The government should arresting, convicting and executing way more of them.
herbst 2y ago
Coming from a country where prostition is legal and drugs heavily decriminalized, all with plenty of help programs for people who need it. I can only say that the problem is not the platforms but forbidding things that people won't stop using is simply delusional.
ChoHag 2y ago
[dead]
munificent 2y ago
> getting prostitutes off the streets. By this, do you mean "reducing the total amount of prostitution occurring" or "making prostitution less visible"? Your third paragraph implies the former, but I suspect the answer is actually the latter. There is probably less total prostition now, but what's there is more visible. You talk about "increased crime" in reference to pimp shootouts, but you know prostitution and sex trafficking are crimes too, right? If thousands of women and girls are suffering but you can't see it because it's all organized online, that's not necessarily better.
johnnyanmac 2y ago
It could be much worse. Some parts of Onlyfans picked up the mantle for that sort of "service".

bloudermilk 2y ago

I don't think much changed, really. The contraband and services offered on these marketplaces has always been backed by criminal enterprises. Mostly the markets provided level of indirection that made purchasing palatable and gave a false sense of safety.

anon84873628 2y ago
Sure, but the point is about secondary effects. If pimps are "competing" online then they need to compete on, well, marketing and UX. If they compete in real life then it is about who controls physical territory. There are lots of studies about the unintended consequences of prohibition.
joe_the_user 2y ago
Online markets for sex work allowed women to operate far more safely than "the street" allow. I had friends who were affected by the crackdown on craigslist etc.
- bloudermilk 2y ago
  I sincerely didn't mean to minimize the harm to sex workers, which is devastating. My point is rather that an online marketplace in the absence of decriminalization and reform can only provide a marginal increase in safety. Sex workers marketing on Backpage, Craigslist, Onlyfans, and IG still face a great deal of risk of violence, pressure from pimps, and prosecution by law enforcement. It's a deeply complex systematic issue which can't be fixed by a website. For drugs in particular, darknet marketplaces primarily rely on unspeakably violent criminal enterprises upstream. The consumers, sellers, and communities implicated in this supply chain are all losers in this system. The cartels are the winners and the global "war on drugs" establishment are a close second place.
  - idunnoman1222 2y ago
    Well, the cartels own most of the avocados so why don’t you think about that next time you go shopping?
  - joe_the_user 2y ago
    I sympathize with the call for decriminalization. Still, in the case of sex work, I think you are simply wrong. Your overall sketch is the "movie version" or police/puritanical version of sex work, a version that equates trafficking and voluntary transactions (not that those transactions can't exploitative in other ways). The majority sex work isn't filled with violence except on the level of the literal street. Notably, my friends and acquaintances who used Craigslist back in the day didn't deal with any pimps and a moment's thought would show pimps are only needed when someone sells sex at a physical location. Also, afaik, onlyfans is a virtual only platform so workers there face the same physical dangers as people on zoom calls. Drugs is a more complex beast.
    - toasterlovin 2y ago
      > a moment's thought would show pimps are only needed when someone sells sex at a physical location Pimps are needed whenever there is coercion involved. It seems unlikely to me that only street prostitution requires coercion. I think we'll soon learn that most of the women on OnlyFans are there because of a violent and manipulative man.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - johnnyanmac 2y ago
        OF is about as decentralized as a "sex service" as you can get, so I'd wager you'd be very wrong there. But yes, it can and does happen. Any system offering freedom can offer just as much freedom to those who coerce others.
    - bloudermilk 2y ago
      Thank you for the kind elaboration. I wonder if you could share any writing on the social justice issues surrounding sex work? My knowledge is limited and informed by only a few pieces I've read over the years.
aftbit 2y ago
Ask an actual sex worker what they think about that.
outside415 2y ago
[flagged]
brohee 2y ago
Illegal online marketplaces absolutely do reduce "turf wars". It's argueable that there is harm reduction compared to street dealing. Then I suspect it creates new consumers so there is that too.

cogman10 2y ago

I wish instead of criminalizing addiction we'd fund harm reduction centers and rehabilitation services. I would much rather the police be focused on stopping violent crime rather than these victimless crimes. Legitimizing drugs/prostitution makes is easier to regulate and ultimately make safer. Shoving this stuff into a black/gray market is what ultimately creates violent crime.

rib3ye 2y ago
> I wish instead of criminalizing addiction we'd fund harm reduction centers and rehabilitation services. We tried that in SF, I was a supporter. Seeing it first hand with a with a family member in public school flipped me. Dumping money into people who aren't ready to convert back into tax payers (even in the most basic sense) while schools got the back burner was enough. Not to mention the tents.
- cogman10 2y ago
  > Seeing it first hand with a with a family member in public school flipped me. Why is this an either or? SF spends about $1 billion dollars on schools [1] and while the program ran it had around a $40 million dollar budget [2]. For an area that houses huge tech companies, this doesn't seem like an extreme budget to be working with. > Not to mention the tents. Ok? And what options would you give these people, just be homeless somewhere else where you can't see them? [1] https://www.sfusd.edu/about-sfusd/sfusd-news/press-releases/2024-06-27-sf-board-education-adopts-plan-and-budget-2024-25-school-year https://www.sfusd.edu/about-sfusd/sfusd-news/press-releases/... [2] https://sfstandard.com/2021/11/17/supervisors-approve-6-5m-increase-to-harm-reduction-contract-but-raise-questions-on-outcomes/ https://sfstandard.com/2021/11/17/supervisors-approve-6-5m-i...
  - daseiner1 2y ago
    SF spends nearly $1B on the homeless.
    - nine_k 2y ago

user3939382 2y ago

I think you meant decreased crime, judging by the context of the rest of your comment.

pawelmurias 2y ago

Pimps dying is great. The government should arresting, convicting and executing way more of them.

herbst 2y ago

Coming from a country where prostition is legal and drugs heavily decriminalized, all with plenty of help programs for people who need it. I can only say that the problem is not the platforms but forbidding things that people won't stop using is simply delusional.

ChoHag 2y ago

[dead]

munificent 2y ago

> getting prostitutes off the streets. By this, do you mean "reducing the total amount of prostitution occurring" or "making prostitution less visible"? Your third paragraph implies the former, but I suspect the answer is actually the latter. There is probably less total prostition now, but what's there is more visible. You talk about "increased crime" in reference to pimp shootouts, but you know prostitution and sex trafficking are crimes too, right? If thousands of women and girls are suffering but you can't see it because it's all organized online, that's not necessarily better.

johnnyanmac 2y ago

It could be much worse. Some parts of Onlyfans picked up the mantle for that sort of "service".