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This. After WhatsApp was acquired by Facebook (this predates any of the current political stuff, it was entirely about privacy), I tried to get friends and fam

by lsllc 2y ago

This. After WhatsApp was acquired by Facebook (this predates any of the current political stuff, it was entirely about privacy), I tried to get friends and family to switch to something else -- Signal in fact as iMessage was a no-go because of the lack of Android support. Out of ~30 people, I got precisely 3 people to switch. No one else cared, no one else wanted the hassle of switching. I even got a few comments along the lines of "but no-one I know is on Signal" etc. I ended up re-installing WhatsApp because I decided that the loss of contact with so many people was worse than any privacy worries I had at the time.

seb1204 2y ago
I managed to migrate my family but no one else. So now I still have WhatsApp and Signal.
ghaff 2y ago
Yeah, my gut is that of those 30K people on Facebook you might get a few hundred to join a new platform. But maybe not. It probably won't be very useful without the other 29K people plus (even if a lot of those are probably not very active). Heck, we see this with Mastodon and Bluesky, their content is very thin in my experience (even if Twitter's is also thinner than it used to be at least with the mostly tech-related content I followed).
ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
You won't get folks to move, because people tend to "stay stuck." Us tecchies (typical HN members) literally can't imagine what non-tech people go through, when encountering tech. It's terrifying, humiliating, and intimidating. The reaction from us techs, does nothing to help, as we tend to sneer at them, and do everything we can, to humiliate them. Fairly typical bullying, but we don't want to admit it, because we were always bullied, and don't want to admit that we are just doing the same to others. Most folks painfully learn rote, then get terrified of changes. This is why so many folks don't want to upgrade, or add new features. Just learning the ones they have mastered, was difficult enough. They can't deal with doing it on a regular basis (like most of us tecchies do). Until we accept this, and keep it in mind, when we design solutions, we won't get much traction. People who do understand it, and design for it, tend to make a lot of money. This is also why we need to introduce changes S L O W L Y, even when we feel that it doesn't make sense. Basic human empathy. It's kinda rare, these days.
- Melatonic 2y ago
  Agreed What might actually be cool would be a common set of design principles that become used across many apps and ecosystems - it would make switching much easier. People are already used to the little "hamburger menu" three dots thing in UI (can also be three lines) often in the upper right for better or worse
- Zak 2y ago
  I had hoped the generations that grew up with the internet would learn how to use computers. Technical advantages like encryption and social advantages like federation tend to make things more complicated to use no matter how much effort is put into UX. Most people did not, in fact learn how to use computers http://www.coding2learn.org/blog/2013/07/29/kids-cant-use-computers/ http://www.coding2learn.org/blog/2013/07/29/kids-cant-use-co...
dawnerd 2y ago
I managed to get people over to Telegram. Signal was a no go. It’s still a bit inconvenient. Mobile only unless you link a desktop is a non starter for me period. Majority of people don’t care about e2ee. They want an easy to use app that syncs everything and doesn’t require reading a manual.
- misiek08 2y ago
  Sad you got downvoted. Signal UX is 100x worse than Telegram and I probably can calculate it to prove this exact number. I’m dreaming about Telegram client and Signal-like openness.
  - Zak 2y ago
    I have used both Signal and Telegram for years and I'm not seeing much UX difference. What's better for you on Telegram?
    - dawnerd 2y ago
      To be fair, Signal has gotten a lot better and a lot easier to show people how to sign up. Back when I did my migration off FB Messenger it was a different story and Telegram was basically on par with Messenger
      - Zak 2y ago
        My initial Signal onboarding was long enough ago that I don't remember it. I do remember some general unreliability about eight years ago, but it's been solid during the past five. Several nontechnical people I've recommended it to during the past five years needed zero handholding.
    - WhyNotHugo 2y ago
      Right clicking on a conversation on signal does nothing. On telegram is shows the menu that if expect. Signal takes many seconds to render the main window. Telegram opens in a reasonable amount of time. Chat bubbles in signal reveal some hidden icons when you hover them, but have a separate right click menu when you click them. You basically have to guess which of both menus contains the action that you need. Copy paste of images often doesn’t work on Signal. The voice clip button does nothing. It simply doesn’t work, but doesn’t show any errors or log anything. I want to like Signal, but the clients are simply terrible, have bad UX and are full of bugs.
ilrwbwrkhv 2y ago
Yep, and this is what I have been telling people that the reason why Trump won is because the right cares much more about their agenda than the left. It's all just surface level virtue signaling for the left, which they will drop immediately if they get a good discount on a local mirror in a city group. On the other hand, be openly LGBT friendly and see if a Trumper comes to buy from your store. Not a single one will.

by lsllc 2y ago

seb1204 2y ago

I managed to migrate my family but no one else. So now I still have WhatsApp and Signal.

ghaff 2y ago

Yeah, my gut is that of those 30K people on Facebook you might get a few hundred to join a new platform. But maybe not. It probably won't be very useful without the other 29K people plus (even if a lot of those are probably not very active). Heck, we see this with Mastodon and Bluesky, their content is very thin in my experience (even if Twitter's is also thinner than it used to be at least with the mostly tech-related content I followed).

ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago

You won't get folks to move, because people tend to "stay stuck." Us tecchies (typical HN members) literally can't imagine what non-tech people go through, when encountering tech. It's terrifying, humiliating, and intimidating. The reaction from us techs, does nothing to help, as we tend to sneer at them, and do everything we can, to humiliate them. Fairly typical bullying, but we don't want to admit it, because we were always bullied, and don't want to admit that we are just doing the same to others. Most folks painfully learn rote, then get terrified of changes. This is why so many folks don't want to upgrade, or add new features. Just learning the ones they have mastered, was difficult enough. They can't deal with doing it on a regular basis (like most of us tecchies do). Until we accept this, and keep it in mind, when we design solutions, we won't get much traction. People who do understand it, and design for it, tend to make a lot of money. This is also why we need to introduce changes S L O W L Y, even when we feel that it doesn't make sense. Basic human empathy. It's kinda rare, these days.

Melatonic 2y ago
Agreed What might actually be cool would be a common set of design principles that become used across many apps and ecosystems - it would make switching much easier. People are already used to the little "hamburger menu" three dots thing in UI (can also be three lines) often in the upper right for better or worse
Zak 2y ago
I had hoped the generations that grew up with the internet would learn how to use computers. Technical advantages like encryption and social advantages like federation tend to make things more complicated to use no matter how much effort is put into UX. Most people did not, in fact learn how to use computers http://www.coding2learn.org/blog/2013/07/29/kids-cant-use-computers/ http://www.coding2learn.org/blog/2013/07/29/kids-cant-use-co...

dawnerd 2y ago

I managed to get people over to Telegram. Signal was a no go. It’s still a bit inconvenient. Mobile only unless you link a desktop is a non starter for me period. Majority of people don’t care about e2ee. They want an easy to use app that syncs everything and doesn’t require reading a manual.

misiek08 2y ago
Sad you got downvoted. Signal UX is 100x worse than Telegram and I probably can calculate it to prove this exact number. I’m dreaming about Telegram client and Signal-like openness.
- Zak 2y ago
  I have used both Signal and Telegram for years and I'm not seeing much UX difference. What's better for you on Telegram?
  - dawnerd 2y ago
    To be fair, Signal has gotten a lot better and a lot easier to show people how to sign up. Back when I did my migration off FB Messenger it was a different story and Telegram was basically on par with Messenger
    - Zak 2y ago
      My initial Signal onboarding was long enough ago that I don't remember it. I do remember some general unreliability about eight years ago, but it's been solid during the past five. Several nontechnical people I've recommended it to during the past five years needed zero handholding.
  - WhyNotHugo 2y ago
    Right clicking on a conversation on signal does nothing. On telegram is shows the menu that if expect. Signal takes many seconds to render the main window. Telegram opens in a reasonable amount of time. Chat bubbles in signal reveal some hidden icons when you hover them, but have a separate right click menu when you click them. You basically have to guess which of both menus contains the action that you need. Copy paste of images often doesn’t work on Signal. The voice clip button does nothing. It simply doesn’t work, but doesn’t show any errors or log anything. I want to like Signal, but the clients are simply terrible, have bad UX and are full of bugs.

ilrwbwrkhv 2y ago

Yep, and this is what I have been telling people that the reason why Trump won is because the right cares much more about their agenda than the left. It's all just surface level virtue signaling for the left, which they will drop immediately if they get a good discount on a local mirror in a city group. On the other hand, be openly LGBT friendly and see if a Trumper comes to buy from your store. Not a single one will.