6 ms·

The Apple Watch is also a terribly designed device for running. Too much of its functions rely on interacting with the touchscreen, something you are either una

by sylens 2y ago

The Apple Watch is also a terribly designed device for running. Too much of its functions rely on interacting with the touchscreen, something you are either unable to do with sweaty hands when running or don't want to do as it draws your attention away for a prolonged amount of time and hurts your form. Garmin's unwavering commitment to physical buttons and how you can customize what they do is what makes them the gold standard in this area for me.

MarkusWandel 2y ago
As a non-Appleista, what strikes me most is their "silo" mentality. Most of the iPhone /iWatch using fitness types I know log their stuff inside the Apple cloud, and do not crosspost to Garmin Connect or Strava so the non-Appleistas don't see their stuff. Whereas the Garmin/Strava world is relatively open. I can for example take the original Forerunner (pictured in the article) and upload stuff from it to the Garmin or Strava cloud, albeit slightly cumbersomely. I sometimes do with a later model, a Forerunner 305, even if it does take USB download to do it. Physical buttons, though... I've lost more than one bike ride because the start/stop button was bumped on the Forerunner and it turned out not to be recording.
- sylens 2y ago
  That might have changed in recent years - I can import workouts to Strava that are recorded by my Apple Watch
  - MarkusWandel 2y ago
    With maps? The only Appleista that I know that crossposts to Strava always ends up with stats, but no map trace.
    - karlshea 2y ago
      Yes, with maps. The Apple Watch Strava app will record and upload directly or you can import workouts from Apple Health, both give you GPS, HR, etc. If recorded elsewhere it can depend, but that’s due to Strava being irritating/changing/dropping integration features in the last couple of years and not an Apple ecosystem issue. Or those people have maps uploaded but have chosen not to make them public?
    - zelos 2y ago
      It used to be a fairly unintuitive manual process but Strava enabled auto-import with full GPS and heart rate import recently.
- gausswho 2y ago
  They may be less gatekeeping than others, but they don't let you get data off the device without a cloud account, at which point all your biometrics are for sale.
  - NoboruWataya 2y ago
    Are you talking about Garmin? If so, that's not my experience of the two watches I have had, which let you take data directly from the device over USB (as FIT files).
  - stevesimmons 2y ago
    Just plug in the Garmin watch to your computer, and its storage opens revealing sensibly named folders. You can open the folder named Activity and copy your sport files in FIT format. Everything else is JSON. No cloud account needed!
  - canucker2016 2y ago
    On my Garmin Forerunner watch, under Settings/System/USB Mode - change to "Mass Storage" from "Garmin". I connect the watch via USB cable and copy the FIT files over to the computer. Looks like there's the same setting in a similar location on the Epix watch - https://www8.garmin.com/manuals/webhelp/GUID-E5C62F3F-DCE3-4197-8CA5-E419B2A55D12/EN-US/GUID-1500E73F-F386-49AF-A542-25D4B1655A08.html https://www8.garmin.com/manuals/webhelp/GUID-E5C62F3F-DCE3-4...
- freshchilled 2y ago
  > I've lost more than one bike ride because the start/stop button was bumped on the Forerunner and it turned out not to be recording. I've had that happen to me during yoga and boxing workouts I've recorded. There's a way to lock the physical buttons (at least on my Instinct watch), which requires multiple presses to stop/start a workout. IIRC, it's by holding the light button.
- stouset 2y ago
  What strikes me is that I alread have a central authoritative store of health and fitness information on my Apple devices bundled directly into the operating system but every single app in that category wants me to use them as the single database of truth instead. Even when they have integration with Health! Everything goes into Apple Health but individual apps can barely talk to one another. Oura won’t pull heart rate data from Apple Health, so when I track my lifting workouts on my watch (a ring is a no-go for barbell work) it’s not there. Same for my Polar chest strap which I use during judo and BJJ. Oura is completely blind to this despite the data being available and it having access through Health. Strava only pulls in workouts for apps that have been directly connected to it. So I have to have n:m connections between apps with this model, and only get sync between apps that have explicit Strava integration. For Garmin cycling workouts this works okay. When I integrate with Polar workouts, Strava insists on reduplicating the data back into Apple Health a second time. I have yet to find a way to get the data into Strava but have it recorded once instead sold zero times or twice. Garmin directly refuses to use anything not recorded from their own devices. It won’t import sleep from my Oura or Withings trackers, heart rate from anything else, etc. Want to use any of the derived metrics in their app? Sorry, you'll need to exclusively use Garmin devices for everything in order to have all that data in place. The only thing that isn’t a complete shitshow in this entire ecosystem is Apple Health.
  - jamespo 2y ago
    What's it like getting data out of Apple Health?
    - stouset 2y ago
      There’s a very easily-discovered button to export everything. It goes to some sort of XML format that I haven’t bothered to inspect but which I assume others have written extractors for. I don’t think I really care all that much though. Other than older heart rate data from my watch and workouts recorded on my watch, all the data is already stored in the apps that created it: Strava, Oura, Garmin, Polar, etc. If I went elsewhere, those apps will still have all their own collected information. I don’t mind that those apps are the source of truth for stuff collected from their own devices. I just want them all to share data with and communicate to one another through Apple Health instead of insisting they can only use data they directly collected (Garmin, Oura, Polar) or requiring direct integration between every pairwise set of apps (Polar, Strava).
- MarkusWandel 2y ago
  An example of how Strava is geek-compatible (so far! it may get ensh*ttified in the future). I found some old GPS logs from 22 years ago, when I first got a handheld GPS and geeked out with it, logging a whole bunch of rides and hikes. It took a bit of work to get those converted to a modern format (load into ancient tool, which is still maintained, and write out as GPX files... one at a time). But then these GPX files can be uploaded to Strava and there they are! Activities older than Strava itself, fully integrated. Also I've more than once had a "whoopsie" - app left recording during the drive home, for example. Download activity from Strava, edit the GPX file, delete the activity and re-upload from the file. And when you download your stuff from Strava, you get a database dump. That's both good and bad; e.g. users are just numbers and you'd need to use the web Strava to translate them to names, but all your photos and all your traces and all your stats come down in standard formats (jpeg, gpx and csv respectively) and nothing is dumbed down; everything is in the best possible format for re-import to something else.
  - nradov 2y ago
    Strava has a built in feature to trim an activity if you accidentally keep recording on the drive home. Happens all the time. You can just select the time when you want to cut it off.
    - MarkusWandel 2y ago
      In the free version? Never noticed it.
vitorsr 2y ago
> Garmin's unwavering commitment to physical buttons and how you can customize what they do is what makes them the gold standard in this area for me. Most people may be unaware that Garmin has a strong foothold in the stringently regulated avionics industry, in particular in flight instruments, displays, deck and others human-machine interface products. In turn, specific regulations informed by ergonomics research are unambiguous in prioritizing safety and unanimously contain minimum usability requirements. As an example, an AC [1, Ch. 7] advises on (electronic display) control devices, and another AC [2] advises on design and evaluation of controls and displays. The software-defined counterparts have immensely harder requirements that must be satisfied, which, in my reading, is incompatible with pure touchscreen devices. [1] https://www.faa.gov/documentlibrary/media/advisory_circular/ac_25-11b.pdf https://www.faa.gov/documentlibrary/media/advisory_circular/... [2] https://www.faa.gov/documentlibrary/media/advisory_circular/ac_25_1302-1.pdf https://www.faa.gov/documentlibrary/media/advisory_circular/...
- cjrp 2y ago
  That was true with something like the G1000, but their newer avionics are very much touchscreen in favour of physical buttons. See the G3X or G3000 for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21eOTAXdXLM&t=18s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21eOTAXdXLM&t=18s
  - chinathrow 2y ago
    Correct. Garmins GPS/NAVCOM flagship, the GTN series is 95% touch.
    - vdqtp3 2y ago
      Yes, but you can perform the essential functions with buttons on the GTN650 or 750 (or xi). Frequency changes, direct to, etc are all still accessible on physical buttons, which makes a big difference in turbulence.
mtalantikite 2y ago
Genuinely curious, what do you need to change mid-run on your watch? I set an apple music playlist to start, open a run on WorkOutDoors, and go. I really am only interested in heart rate, distance traveled and pace. And if I need to stop for anything walking back to my apartment after a session I have apple pay. Granted, I'm not a serious runner, I only do it as a supplement for my muay thai training (i.e. I'm only running 5-8k at like a 4'30" or so pace). So I guess I'm interested in what runners who are running as their primary sport like about the Garmin, as I often hear people say the Garmin is so much better.
- KPGv2 2y ago
  FWIW there are a lot of features that are really great on a run, but you might have to switch screens or even manipulate the screen. For instance, zoom in and out on a map. Or instruct your watch to re-route you to the fastest way home, or start guiding you the reverse way you came so you end up doubling your distance when you get back home. You might have other sensors feeding info and the data doesn't all fit on one screen. Maybe you want to control music playback and find playlists subpar (you might want to change based on how you feel in the moment, or pick another podcast because you added time onto your run or the other one ended up being boring, etc.). Play music and run is fine for lots of people, though, so I'm not surprised it works for you.
  - mtalantikite 2y ago
    Ok yeah, the map stuff makes a lot of sense then, if I were out on trails or somewhere unfamiliar I can see that being very helpful. I'm always just running the bridges of NYC, so it's hard to get lost! Although I might get more serious this year so I can run the ridiculous williamsburg bridge marathon [1], so maybe I'll check out what I'm missing with Garmin. [1] https://www.williamsburgbridgemarathon.com/ https://www.williamsburgbridgemarathon.com/
- jean-bonneau 2y ago
  I'm usually on the same main screen with time/distance/heart rate, but when I change screen that would mostly be for: - Map/routing, useful for trail running or when running in an area you are unfamiliar with - Elevation, vertical speed (useful for trail running too) - Workouts (steps/next step/instructions/duration/etc.)
PeterStuer 2y ago
I've owned 2 Garmin running watches, and still find their UI non intuitive.

by sylens 2y ago

MarkusWandel 2y ago

As a non-Appleista, what strikes me most is their "silo" mentality. Most of the iPhone /iWatch using fitness types I know log their stuff inside the Apple cloud, and do not crosspost to Garmin Connect or Strava so the non-Appleistas don't see their stuff. Whereas the Garmin/Strava world is relatively open. I can for example take the original Forerunner (pictured in the article) and upload stuff from it to the Garmin or Strava cloud, albeit slightly cumbersomely. I sometimes do with a later model, a Forerunner 305, even if it does take USB download to do it. Physical buttons, though... I've lost more than one bike ride because the start/stop button was bumped on the Forerunner and it turned out not to be recording.

sylens 2y ago
That might have changed in recent years - I can import workouts to Strava that are recorded by my Apple Watch
- MarkusWandel 2y ago
  With maps? The only Appleista that I know that crossposts to Strava always ends up with stats, but no map trace.
  - karlshea 2y ago
    Yes, with maps. The Apple Watch Strava app will record and upload directly or you can import workouts from Apple Health, both give you GPS, HR, etc. If recorded elsewhere it can depend, but that’s due to Strava being irritating/changing/dropping integration features in the last couple of years and not an Apple ecosystem issue. Or those people have maps uploaded but have chosen not to make them public?
  - zelos 2y ago
    It used to be a fairly unintuitive manual process but Strava enabled auto-import with full GPS and heart rate import recently.
gausswho 2y ago
They may be less gatekeeping than others, but they don't let you get data off the device without a cloud account, at which point all your biometrics are for sale.
- NoboruWataya 2y ago
  Are you talking about Garmin? If so, that's not my experience of the two watches I have had, which let you take data directly from the device over USB (as FIT files).
- stevesimmons 2y ago
  Just plug in the Garmin watch to your computer, and its storage opens revealing sensibly named folders. You can open the folder named Activity and copy your sport files in FIT format. Everything else is JSON. No cloud account needed!
- canucker2016 2y ago
  On my Garmin Forerunner watch, under Settings/System/USB Mode - change to "Mass Storage" from "Garmin". I connect the watch via USB cable and copy the FIT files over to the computer. Looks like there's the same setting in a similar location on the Epix watch - https://www8.garmin.com/manuals/webhelp/GUID-E5C62F3F-DCE3-4197-8CA5-E419B2A55D12/EN-US/GUID-1500E73F-F386-49AF-A542-25D4B1655A08.html https://www8.garmin.com/manuals/webhelp/GUID-E5C62F3F-DCE3-4...
freshchilled 2y ago
> I've lost more than one bike ride because the start/stop button was bumped on the Forerunner and it turned out not to be recording. I've had that happen to me during yoga and boxing workouts I've recorded. There's a way to lock the physical buttons (at least on my Instinct watch), which requires multiple presses to stop/start a workout. IIRC, it's by holding the light button.
stouset 2y ago
What strikes me is that I alread have a central authoritative store of health and fitness information on my Apple devices bundled directly into the operating system but every single app in that category wants me to use them as the single database of truth instead. Even when they have integration with Health! Everything goes into Apple Health but individual apps can barely talk to one another. Oura won’t pull heart rate data from Apple Health, so when I track my lifting workouts on my watch (a ring is a no-go for barbell work) it’s not there. Same for my Polar chest strap which I use during judo and BJJ. Oura is completely blind to this despite the data being available and it having access through Health. Strava only pulls in workouts for apps that have been directly connected to it. So I have to have n:m connections between apps with this model, and only get sync between apps that have explicit Strava integration. For Garmin cycling workouts this works okay. When I integrate with Polar workouts, Strava insists on reduplicating the data back into Apple Health a second time. I have yet to find a way to get the data into Strava but have it recorded once instead sold zero times or twice. Garmin directly refuses to use anything not recorded from their own devices. It won’t import sleep from my Oura or Withings trackers, heart rate from anything else, etc. Want to use any of the derived metrics in their app? Sorry, you'll need to exclusively use Garmin devices for everything in order to have all that data in place. The only thing that isn’t a complete shitshow in this entire ecosystem is Apple Health.
- jamespo 2y ago
  What's it like getting data out of Apple Health?
  - stouset 2y ago
    There’s a very easily-discovered button to export everything. It goes to some sort of XML format that I haven’t bothered to inspect but which I assume others have written extractors for. I don’t think I really care all that much though. Other than older heart rate data from my watch and workouts recorded on my watch, all the data is already stored in the apps that created it: Strava, Oura, Garmin, Polar, etc. If I went elsewhere, those apps will still have all their own collected information. I don’t mind that those apps are the source of truth for stuff collected from their own devices. I just want them all to share data with and communicate to one another through Apple Health instead of insisting they can only use data they directly collected (Garmin, Oura, Polar) or requiring direct integration between every pairwise set of apps (Polar, Strava).
MarkusWandel 2y ago
An example of how Strava is geek-compatible (so far! it may get ensh*ttified in the future). I found some old GPS logs from 22 years ago, when I first got a handheld GPS and geeked out with it, logging a whole bunch of rides and hikes. It took a bit of work to get those converted to a modern format (load into ancient tool, which is still maintained, and write out as GPX files... one at a time). But then these GPX files can be uploaded to Strava and there they are! Activities older than Strava itself, fully integrated. Also I've more than once had a "whoopsie" - app left recording during the drive home, for example. Download activity from Strava, edit the GPX file, delete the activity and re-upload from the file. And when you download your stuff from Strava, you get a database dump. That's both good and bad; e.g. users are just numbers and you'd need to use the web Strava to translate them to names, but all your photos and all your traces and all your stats come down in standard formats (jpeg, gpx and csv respectively) and nothing is dumbed down; everything is in the best possible format for re-import to something else.
- nradov 2y ago
  Strava has a built in feature to trim an activity if you accidentally keep recording on the drive home. Happens all the time. You can just select the time when you want to cut it off.
  - MarkusWandel 2y ago
    In the free version? Never noticed it.

vitorsr 2y ago

> Garmin's unwavering commitment to physical buttons and how you can customize what they do is what makes them the gold standard in this area for me. Most people may be unaware that Garmin has a strong foothold in the stringently regulated avionics industry, in particular in flight instruments, displays, deck and others human-machine interface products. In turn, specific regulations informed by ergonomics research are unambiguous in prioritizing safety and unanimously contain minimum usability requirements. As an example, an AC [1, Ch. 7] advises on (electronic display) control devices, and another AC [2] advises on design and evaluation of controls and displays. The software-defined counterparts have immensely harder requirements that must be satisfied, which, in my reading, is incompatible with pure touchscreen devices. [1] https://www.faa.gov/documentlibrary/media/advisory_circular/ac_25-11b.pdf https://www.faa.gov/documentlibrary/media/advisory_circular/... [2] https://www.faa.gov/documentlibrary/media/advisory_circular/ac_25_1302-1.pdf https://www.faa.gov/documentlibrary/media/advisory_circular/...

cjrp 2y ago
That was true with something like the G1000, but their newer avionics are very much touchscreen in favour of physical buttons. See the G3X or G3000 for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21eOTAXdXLM&t=18s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21eOTAXdXLM&t=18s
- chinathrow 2y ago
  Correct. Garmins GPS/NAVCOM flagship, the GTN series is 95% touch.
  - vdqtp3 2y ago
    Yes, but you can perform the essential functions with buttons on the GTN650 or 750 (or xi). Frequency changes, direct to, etc are all still accessible on physical buttons, which makes a big difference in turbulence.

mtalantikite 2y ago

Genuinely curious, what do you need to change mid-run on your watch? I set an apple music playlist to start, open a run on WorkOutDoors, and go. I really am only interested in heart rate, distance traveled and pace. And if I need to stop for anything walking back to my apartment after a session I have apple pay. Granted, I'm not a serious runner, I only do it as a supplement for my muay thai training (i.e. I'm only running 5-8k at like a 4'30" or so pace). So I guess I'm interested in what runners who are running as their primary sport like about the Garmin, as I often hear people say the Garmin is so much better.

KPGv2 2y ago
FWIW there are a lot of features that are really great on a run, but you might have to switch screens or even manipulate the screen. For instance, zoom in and out on a map. Or instruct your watch to re-route you to the fastest way home, or start guiding you the reverse way you came so you end up doubling your distance when you get back home. You might have other sensors feeding info and the data doesn't all fit on one screen. Maybe you want to control music playback and find playlists subpar (you might want to change based on how you feel in the moment, or pick another podcast because you added time onto your run or the other one ended up being boring, etc.). Play music and run is fine for lots of people, though, so I'm not surprised it works for you.
- mtalantikite 2y ago
  Ok yeah, the map stuff makes a lot of sense then, if I were out on trails or somewhere unfamiliar I can see that being very helpful. I'm always just running the bridges of NYC, so it's hard to get lost! Although I might get more serious this year so I can run the ridiculous williamsburg bridge marathon [1], so maybe I'll check out what I'm missing with Garmin. [1] https://www.williamsburgbridgemarathon.com/ https://www.williamsburgbridgemarathon.com/
jean-bonneau 2y ago
I'm usually on the same main screen with time/distance/heart rate, but when I change screen that would mostly be for: - Map/routing, useful for trail running or when running in an area you are unfamiliar with - Elevation, vertical speed (useful for trail running too) - Workouts (steps/next step/instructions/duration/etc.)

PeterStuer 2y ago

I've owned 2 Garmin running watches, and still find their UI non intuitive.