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> What's changed? Largely, the make up of the audience in HN. I sincerely doubt that the hard core of people doing startups, thinking of doing a startup, or ju

> What's changed? Largely, the make up of the audience in HN. I sincerely doubt that the hard core of people doing startups, thinking of doing a startup, or just very interested in the topic has gone away or changed attitude very much. But the profile of HN has grown. It's a miracle that it's still an interesting and curious group, but from comments I'd be astounded if there were not a far greater proportion of people who are here because they are generically interested in tech topics and not specifically startups. That broader group was always there, of course, just its proportions relative to the hard core of entrepreneurs has changed. I'd love to see some objective analysis of how things changed after the twitter and reddit kerfuffles, but I don't believe the article's thesis that the zeitgeist is the cause. PS I could live without the stories that violate the precept of "If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic." ... but it's still pretty good here.

jajko 2y ago
This is just another public website, various people come here since its interesting and discussions engaging. Its one of the last places which is free/public and discussions don't immediately turn primitive, political and emotional unlike rest of internet. People from various backgrounds come and have interesting things to say, which is often refreshing and enlightening (at least to this fella). Many if not most of folks at this point have nothing to do with neither startups nor hacking. Neither do I for example, and I am here for a decade+.
NoboruWataya 2y ago
> I'd be astounded if there were not a far greater proportion of people who are here because they are generically interested in tech topics and not specifically startups This is certainly me. Generally interested in tech (and many of the other things that HNers seem to be interested in these days), but no real interest in startups. Hope I am not ruining HN for the old timers. I started using this place a lot more in the last couple of years as Reddit went to shit, so I suspect that was a big driving force in changing the audience here.
- Macha 2y ago
  This was always me, and I've been here 15 years. It was pretty much a tech forum then (arguably more then than now, there's much more discussion of culture war issues now, even when stories are flagged it's ever-present in the comments). I think the time when HN was primarily startups was much further back and much briefer than most people nostalgically remember.
  - dcminter 2y ago
    Yes, but the proportions have still changed. It's not static, it's a progression. 2010 will have been different to 2008 (when I joined) but so will 2013 with respect to 2010, 2020 with respect to 2013, and 2025 with respect to 2020. It's fine that it's much more broadly a tech forum now - but it's silly to infer things about the wider world by comparing attitudes in HN across eras unless you take account of the change in demographic. As to the culture wars? Perhaps it's time for another "erlang love bombing" campaign to recalibrate :D (When was that anyway...?) Edit: Ah yes, it was in 2009: https://news.ycombinator.com/front?day=2009-03-11 https://news.ycombinator.com/front?day=2009-03-11
  - wat10000 2y ago
    I mean, it’s not called Startup News. There’s a group that assumes real hackers all want to do startups (and the site is run by some of those), but that isn’t really the culture. We mythologize Woz and Gates and Page, but also K&R and Knuth and Dijkstra.
    - Macha 2y ago
      > I mean, it’s not called Startup News Well, not anymore it isn't: https://web.archive.org/web/20070601184317/http://news.ycombinator.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20070601184317/http://news.ycomb...
    - TeMPOraL 2y ago
      > We mythologize Woz and Gates and Page Interesting that you both put Woz in this group, and omitted Jobs. To me, one of the better analogy of the difference between two groups/interests is Woz vs Jobs.
hardwaresofton 2y ago
Agree with all your points, just wanted to note: > But the profile of HN has grown. It's a miracle that it's still an interesting and curious group This miracle is probably just hard work in disguise -- dang et al. HN also has a self-censorship bias and some self-enforcement, but mostly not an abrasive kind -- people (mostly) gently remind each other of the rules, and sometimes viciously downvote comments that are not useful/in the spirit of HN.
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  HN and Dan’s work are arguably worth more than the VC part of YC. The VC side plays the capital musical chairs game (selling the equity to a greater fool before the music stops), this is the valuable output from that.
- dcminter 2y ago
  Oh I entirely concur; I think there's a team of sorts, not just Dan, but I'm sure the gentle steering is a huge part of the reason things are still on course. https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-silicon-valley/the-lonely-work-of-moderating-hacker-news https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-silicon-valley/th...
nottorp 2y ago
For the record, when i started to read HN I didn't even realize it's sponsored by ycombinator and is a startup launch vehicle for several years. I'm here for the tech porn mostly. I do read the business related stories but I mostly retain everything but whatever includes "founder". (My account seems to be made in 2016, so i suppose i started reading in like 2013-2014.)
nick__m 2y ago
As a Canadian in a low COL area working somewhere with almost absolute job security, a pension plan and plenty of opportunities for learning (I have a few 3 hours sessions on quantum computer starting next week :D ) I don't care much for the SV startup ... I am here for the selection of interesting articles and the high quality comments when it's not a political thread (those threads have less rational lower quality comments and I am also guilty of producing some os them, I apologize dang).
- swat535 2y ago
  If I were to make an off topic comment and by no means I am picking on you personally, however as another Canadian, I find this general attitude of Canadians towards innovation unsettling and dare I say it's the reason why we are always playing catch up with US. It's also the number one reason why we are bleeding top talent to Americans which results our nation great economy loss. I suppose you can argue that we have more of a "European" attitude, to which I would respond that while we pay high taxes like Europe, we hardly get any of the social security benefits that they enjoy, so in short we end up with worst of both worlds: high taxes, low salaries and limited benefits. You can't expect a nation to develop the next FANG when people's idea of business is purchasing a home in the "suburbs" of Toronto and renting out its basement. P.S I hope you are staying warm in this weather..
  - sofixa 2y ago
    > You can't expect a nation to develop the next FANG when people's idea of business is purchasing a home in the "suburbs" of Toronto and renting out its basement. Serious question: do you think having the next FANG is desirable? Many people would say that those companies (Netflix are kind of the exception) are too big, too powerful, stifling competition and innovation, and even deserve to be broken up. Lots of folks would create their own business, but it takes a special person to dream of world domination and want their company to be a global multi-industry behemoth. As a fun example, contrast successful restaurants in France vs in US. In France, very few restauranteurs branch out with other locations or start their own chain, it's considered a sort of selling out/diluting of quality. That's how you have decades old highly profitable and loved restaurants that are just there and work well. In the US you have to make it big, expand, increase sales, add locations, make it a chain, etc.
chamomeal 2y ago
Good point. I started looking at HN a few years ago, and though I knew it was run by YC it didn’t even occur to me that it at one point was startup-oriented
copyleftdj 2y ago
>be astounded if there were not a far greater proportion of people who are here because they are generically interested in tech topics and not specifically startups. For me what hn use to be an interaction between art and tech in the theme of hackers & painters. Tech along is not so interesting IMHO unless it's in the context of art and/or humanity.
- finnthehuman 2y ago
  Maciej wrote "Dabblers and Blowhards" in 2005 (that was an eyeopening date to go check). Hackers and Painters was always for the fresh and easily impressionable to feel a sense of specialness.
  - gsf_emergency 2y ago
    I'm vibing that the original sin of HN is the shame in being a midwit. Maciej comes off as being an incurious blowhard too.. (Consider that the word "painter" itself has complementary high/low meanings) Currently I'm low-key mulling about the possibly not-even-wrong idea that in some cultures, there simply isn't a clear distinction between high and low art. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42770351 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42770351 The downside of that 1)YC and HN won't attract a lot of people from such cultures, at least not the ones they hope to get (the supposedly curious AND effective folks) 2) eternal September is inevitable, especially for folks who have Alan Kay in their pantheon of heroes Separately, California seems like it could very well host a ommerist culture in a century. See the Oscars, very much a blowhard affair though you could almost call it "communal" (blowhards celebrating shitting in public?) -- Hollywood still has to go through the prepubescent phase of totally embracing their inner and utter philistine. (Compare Kaurismaki, maybe he got a bit enlightened by eastern filmmakers?)
- gsf_emergency 2y ago
  Upvotes and downvotes are about art vs humanity.. ("painting with #s"[0]) see below [0] an inane activity which has often been unduly embraced/denounced >In 2011, the Museum of Modern Art in New York accepted four early designs of paint by number by Max Klein for its Department of Architecture and Design, donated by Jacquelyn Schiffman.
dsugarman 2y ago
Everyone is so negative, cynical, and bitter on HN now, it's really sad to me. I went through YC in 2012 and I feel like the community here is unrecognizable, the quality of discourse is so low it feels hard to participate.
- spencerflem 2y ago
  I joined HN only a few years past you, but given what's being done in the name of tech these days I find it very hard not be cynical
- Daishiman 2y ago
  The promise of technology was different. The stories of engineers at FB making millions in options were still fresh in people's minds. The untapped potential of mobile and SAAS and a dozen other things. Tech lost its glitter. It is now just another arm of rentier capitalism, not too dissimilar from banks and finance.
- finnthehuman 2y ago
  > Everyone is so negative, cynical, and bitter on HN now Our profession got hollowed out over the years. Of course the vibes at the bar next to the plant will be down. > it's really sad to me There's a thing I've seen on HN a few times over the years, where people expect HN to be like a secret oasis of fun away from the realities of the professional pursuits that brought us together in the first place. Why is that?
- Analemma_ 2y ago
  I can understand complaining about cynicism, but it's dishonest to pretend it's not coming from a real place. All the complaints people are voicing elsewhere in this thread are true: - it's true that you will get jack squat if you're employee #4 or later (and in the process you'll work more hours with less job security than at a FAANG) - it's true that the startup scene has delivered basically nothing of real value to the economy in the last fifteen years: it has all been regulatory arbitrage, intrusive ad-tech, financial engineering, and, of course, shitcoins - it's true that the people at the top turned out to be amoral psychopaths who practically tripped over themselves to kiss the ring when authoritarianism arrived and their talk about improving the world was hot air If you're going to complain about the cynicism, you should at least respond to the above instead of pretending it's just grumps wanting to ruin everyone's fun.
terminalgravity 2y ago
Yep not a tech worker at all but here because i like tech and the discussions
viccis 2y ago
Yeah I'm here because reddit's programming community became unusable in the late 2010s but especially over the last few years. For example, I'd see a post about CockroachDB and every single reddit comment would be some low effort joke making fun of the name. Meanwhile I'd come here and the creator would be in the comments answering questions. When reddit changed their default sort away from upvotes and towards engagement metrics in 2021, most of the useful places there sort of withered away.
ddingus 2y ago
Somewhat old timer here. Currently in a startup. Frankly, the greater discussion diversity has improved HN for me. I found the site dynamics compelling early on, bit often felt the discussion was narrow and to some degree an echo chamber. Arguments that counted as points made then often fall flat now and that is A Very Good Thing™
01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
I started hanging out more here after Reddit cracked down on anonymity.
tasuki 2y ago
I guess it's mostly the same people on HN as those 12 years ago. Apparently I'd created my account in 2012 and at that point I'd been lurking for some time. Well I'm still here but I've gotten a lot older. And you have, too!
ekms 2y ago
I stopped reading hn regularly a couple years ago just because the top-voted comments were so reliably negative cynical takes. And not just for articles related to startups.
forbiddenvoid 2y ago
This is definitely true. I'm working on a project to recap 2024 HN. Two things that immediately jumped out at me: 1. 40% of the posts/comments in all of 2024 came from accounts created IN 2024. There are a LOT of new people on HN. 2. The most commented post of the year was a news article about Donald Trump's election victory, so TV news-esque content is definitely getting more traction than expected.
jurschreuder 2y ago
I'm a startup founder doing startup right now. I'm experiencing burnout, by which I mean, after half a year of working 6-7 days a week 10-16 hours a day I really needed an 8 hour workday to get my focus back. Specially after working non stop for two weeks for a demo for McDonald's with only 6hrs sleep per night and then two devices fried because of a messed up 5v connection so we missed the demo. Went to bed at 20:30 today because the startup hustle is real. No rest for the .. startup founders. Want to have one day of 8hrs of work only so I'm fresh tomorrow to visit a car factory and to write two papers in the weekend. I just started a relationship though, you do get used to the sensation of falling down a cliff trying to build a plane as you fall while eating glass and barely being able to walk out of exhaustion because it needs to be ready tomorrow so you're the only office on a Sunday night at 3am with the lights still burning while knowing that if you cannot borrow money within 4 days you cannot pay rent. It's an acquired taste :) I agree that SaaS is a dead end. I had a talk with two of our investors this week who run a SaaS company trying to convince me to stop hardware and go 100% to SaaS because it's such a great business model. But for that I think you're too late. The only new SaaS I consistently see people trying out are AI SaaS. Because of that I'm doing SaaS with AI but combined with physical devices. I do think manufacturing is going to grow in the US and Europe, simply because factories need (way way) fewer people. Regardless of tariffs, protectionism, etc., the playing field has changed. Labor cost has become a tiny fraction of manufacturing cost. Offshoring makes no real sense anymore. Therefore I make real physical AI, cameras and robots, to help people, well people and bigger people like McDonald's and car factories, build ultra-low-labor factories. That's what's going on in the US and in Europe right now, not SaaS. But the principle is the same: Startups just move to where the money / growth is.

jajko 2y ago

This is just another public website, various people come here since its interesting and discussions engaging. Its one of the last places which is free/public and discussions don't immediately turn primitive, political and emotional unlike rest of internet. People from various backgrounds come and have interesting things to say, which is often refreshing and enlightening (at least to this fella). Many if not most of folks at this point have nothing to do with neither startups nor hacking. Neither do I for example, and I am here for a decade+.

NoboruWataya 2y ago

> I'd be astounded if there were not a far greater proportion of people who are here because they are generically interested in tech topics and not specifically startups This is certainly me. Generally interested in tech (and many of the other things that HNers seem to be interested in these days), but no real interest in startups. Hope I am not ruining HN for the old timers. I started using this place a lot more in the last couple of years as Reddit went to shit, so I suspect that was a big driving force in changing the audience here.

Macha 2y ago
This was always me, and I've been here 15 years. It was pretty much a tech forum then (arguably more then than now, there's much more discussion of culture war issues now, even when stories are flagged it's ever-present in the comments). I think the time when HN was primarily startups was much further back and much briefer than most people nostalgically remember.
- dcminter 2y ago
  Yes, but the proportions have still changed. It's not static, it's a progression. 2010 will have been different to 2008 (when I joined) but so will 2013 with respect to 2010, 2020 with respect to 2013, and 2025 with respect to 2020. It's fine that it's much more broadly a tech forum now - but it's silly to infer things about the wider world by comparing attitudes in HN across eras unless you take account of the change in demographic. As to the culture wars? Perhaps it's time for another "erlang love bombing" campaign to recalibrate :D (When was that anyway...?) Edit: Ah yes, it was in 2009: https://news.ycombinator.com/front?day=2009-03-11 https://news.ycombinator.com/front?day=2009-03-11
- wat10000 2y ago
  I mean, it’s not called Startup News. There’s a group that assumes real hackers all want to do startups (and the site is run by some of those), but that isn’t really the culture. We mythologize Woz and Gates and Page, but also K&R and Knuth and Dijkstra.
  - Macha 2y ago
    > I mean, it’s not called Startup News Well, not anymore it isn't: https://web.archive.org/web/20070601184317/http://news.ycombinator.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20070601184317/http://news.ycomb...
  - TeMPOraL 2y ago
    > We mythologize Woz and Gates and Page Interesting that you both put Woz in this group, and omitted Jobs. To me, one of the better analogy of the difference between two groups/interests is Woz vs Jobs.

hardwaresofton 2y ago

Agree with all your points, just wanted to note: > But the profile of HN has grown. It's a miracle that it's still an interesting and curious group This miracle is probably just hard work in disguise -- dang et al. HN also has a self-censorship bias and some self-enforcement, but mostly not an abrasive kind -- people (mostly) gently remind each other of the rules, and sometimes viciously downvote comments that are not useful/in the spirit of HN.

toomuchtodo 2y ago
HN and Dan’s work are arguably worth more than the VC part of YC. The VC side plays the capital musical chairs game (selling the equity to a greater fool before the music stops), this is the valuable output from that.
dcminter 2y ago
Oh I entirely concur; I think there's a team of sorts, not just Dan, but I'm sure the gentle steering is a huge part of the reason things are still on course. https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-silicon-valley/the-lonely-work-of-moderating-hacker-news https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-silicon-valley/th...

nottorp 2y ago

For the record, when i started to read HN I didn't even realize it's sponsored by ycombinator and is a startup launch vehicle for several years. I'm here for the tech porn mostly. I do read the business related stories but I mostly retain everything but whatever includes "founder". (My account seems to be made in 2016, so i suppose i started reading in like 2013-2014.)

nick__m 2y ago

As a Canadian in a low COL area working somewhere with almost absolute job security, a pension plan and plenty of opportunities for learning (I have a few 3 hours sessions on quantum computer starting next week :D ) I don't care much for the SV startup ... I am here for the selection of interesting articles and the high quality comments when it's not a political thread (those threads have less rational lower quality comments and I am also guilty of producing some os them, I apologize dang).

swat535 2y ago
If I were to make an off topic comment and by no means I am picking on you personally, however as another Canadian, I find this general attitude of Canadians towards innovation unsettling and dare I say it's the reason why we are always playing catch up with US. It's also the number one reason why we are bleeding top talent to Americans which results our nation great economy loss. I suppose you can argue that we have more of a "European" attitude, to which I would respond that while we pay high taxes like Europe, we hardly get any of the social security benefits that they enjoy, so in short we end up with worst of both worlds: high taxes, low salaries and limited benefits. You can't expect a nation to develop the next FANG when people's idea of business is purchasing a home in the "suburbs" of Toronto and renting out its basement. P.S I hope you are staying warm in this weather..
- sofixa 2y ago
  > You can't expect a nation to develop the next FANG when people's idea of business is purchasing a home in the "suburbs" of Toronto and renting out its basement. Serious question: do you think having the next FANG is desirable? Many people would say that those companies (Netflix are kind of the exception) are too big, too powerful, stifling competition and innovation, and even deserve to be broken up. Lots of folks would create their own business, but it takes a special person to dream of world domination and want their company to be a global multi-industry behemoth. As a fun example, contrast successful restaurants in France vs in US. In France, very few restauranteurs branch out with other locations or start their own chain, it's considered a sort of selling out/diluting of quality. That's how you have decades old highly profitable and loved restaurants that are just there and work well. In the US you have to make it big, expand, increase sales, add locations, make it a chain, etc.

chamomeal 2y ago

Good point. I started looking at HN a few years ago, and though I knew it was run by YC it didn’t even occur to me that it at one point was startup-oriented

copyleftdj 2y ago

>be astounded if there were not a far greater proportion of people who are here because they are generically interested in tech topics and not specifically startups. For me what hn use to be an interaction between art and tech in the theme of hackers & painters. Tech along is not so interesting IMHO unless it's in the context of art and/or humanity.

finnthehuman 2y ago
Maciej wrote "Dabblers and Blowhards" in 2005 (that was an eyeopening date to go check). Hackers and Painters was always for the fresh and easily impressionable to feel a sense of specialness.
- gsf_emergency 2y ago
  I'm vibing that the original sin of HN is the shame in being a midwit. Maciej comes off as being an incurious blowhard too.. (Consider that the word "painter" itself has complementary high/low meanings) Currently I'm low-key mulling about the possibly not-even-wrong idea that in some cultures, there simply isn't a clear distinction between high and low art. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42770351 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42770351 The downside of that 1)YC and HN won't attract a lot of people from such cultures, at least not the ones they hope to get (the supposedly curious AND effective folks) 2) eternal September is inevitable, especially for folks who have Alan Kay in their pantheon of heroes Separately, California seems like it could very well host a ommerist culture in a century. See the Oscars, very much a blowhard affair though you could almost call it "communal" (blowhards celebrating shitting in public?) -- Hollywood still has to go through the prepubescent phase of totally embracing their inner and utter philistine. (Compare Kaurismaki, maybe he got a bit enlightened by eastern filmmakers?)
gsf_emergency 2y ago
Upvotes and downvotes are about art vs humanity.. ("painting with #s"[0]) see below [0] an inane activity which has often been unduly embraced/denounced >In 2011, the Museum of Modern Art in New York accepted four early designs of paint by number by Max Klein for its Department of Architecture and Design, donated by Jacquelyn Schiffman.

dsugarman 2y ago

Everyone is so negative, cynical, and bitter on HN now, it's really sad to me. I went through YC in 2012 and I feel like the community here is unrecognizable, the quality of discourse is so low it feels hard to participate.

spencerflem 2y ago
I joined HN only a few years past you, but given what's being done in the name of tech these days I find it very hard not be cynical
Daishiman 2y ago
The promise of technology was different. The stories of engineers at FB making millions in options were still fresh in people's minds. The untapped potential of mobile and SAAS and a dozen other things. Tech lost its glitter. It is now just another arm of rentier capitalism, not too dissimilar from banks and finance.
finnthehuman 2y ago
> Everyone is so negative, cynical, and bitter on HN now Our profession got hollowed out over the years. Of course the vibes at the bar next to the plant will be down. > it's really sad to me There's a thing I've seen on HN a few times over the years, where people expect HN to be like a secret oasis of fun away from the realities of the professional pursuits that brought us together in the first place. Why is that?
Analemma_ 2y ago
I can understand complaining about cynicism, but it's dishonest to pretend it's not coming from a real place. All the complaints people are voicing elsewhere in this thread are true: - it's true that you will get jack squat if you're employee #4 or later (and in the process you'll work more hours with less job security than at a FAANG) - it's true that the startup scene has delivered basically nothing of real value to the economy in the last fifteen years: it has all been regulatory arbitrage, intrusive ad-tech, financial engineering, and, of course, shitcoins - it's true that the people at the top turned out to be amoral psychopaths who practically tripped over themselves to kiss the ring when authoritarianism arrived and their talk about improving the world was hot air If you're going to complain about the cynicism, you should at least respond to the above instead of pretending it's just grumps wanting to ruin everyone's fun.

terminalgravity 2y ago

Yep not a tech worker at all but here because i like tech and the discussions

viccis 2y ago

Yeah I'm here because reddit's programming community became unusable in the late 2010s but especially over the last few years. For example, I'd see a post about CockroachDB and every single reddit comment would be some low effort joke making fun of the name. Meanwhile I'd come here and the creator would be in the comments answering questions. When reddit changed their default sort away from upvotes and towards engagement metrics in 2021, most of the useful places there sort of withered away.

ddingus 2y ago

Somewhat old timer here. Currently in a startup. Frankly, the greater discussion diversity has improved HN for me. I found the site dynamics compelling early on, bit often felt the discussion was narrow and to some degree an echo chamber. Arguments that counted as points made then often fall flat now and that is A Very Good Thing™

01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago

I started hanging out more here after Reddit cracked down on anonymity.

tasuki 2y ago

I guess it's mostly the same people on HN as those 12 years ago. Apparently I'd created my account in 2012 and at that point I'd been lurking for some time. Well I'm still here but I've gotten a lot older. And you have, too!

ekms 2y ago

I stopped reading hn regularly a couple years ago just because the top-voted comments were so reliably negative cynical takes. And not just for articles related to startups.

forbiddenvoid 2y ago

This is definitely true. I'm working on a project to recap 2024 HN. Two things that immediately jumped out at me: 1. 40% of the posts/comments in all of 2024 came from accounts created IN 2024. There are a LOT of new people on HN. 2. The most commented post of the year was a news article about Donald Trump's election victory, so TV news-esque content is definitely getting more traction than expected.

jurschreuder 2y ago

I'm a startup founder doing startup right now. I'm experiencing burnout, by which I mean, after half a year of working 6-7 days a week 10-16 hours a day I really needed an 8 hour workday to get my focus back. Specially after working non stop for two weeks for a demo for McDonald's with only 6hrs sleep per night and then two devices fried because of a messed up 5v connection so we missed the demo. Went to bed at 20:30 today because the startup hustle is real. No rest for the .. startup founders. Want to have one day of 8hrs of work only so I'm fresh tomorrow to visit a car factory and to write two papers in the weekend. I just started a relationship though, you do get used to the sensation of falling down a cliff trying to build a plane as you fall while eating glass and barely being able to walk out of exhaustion because it needs to be ready tomorrow so you're the only office on a Sunday night at 3am with the lights still burning while knowing that if you cannot borrow money within 4 days you cannot pay rent. It's an acquired taste :) I agree that SaaS is a dead end. I had a talk with two of our investors this week who run a SaaS company trying to convince me to stop hardware and go 100% to SaaS because it's such a great business model. But for that I think you're too late. The only new SaaS I consistently see people trying out are AI SaaS. Because of that I'm doing SaaS with AI but combined with physical devices. I do think manufacturing is going to grow in the US and Europe, simply because factories need (way way) fewer people. Regardless of tariffs, protectionism, etc., the playing field has changed. Labor cost has become a tiny fraction of manufacturing cost. Offshoring makes no real sense anymore. Therefore I make real physical AI, cameras and robots, to help people, well people and bigger people like McDonald's and car factories, build ultra-low-labor factories. That's what's going on in the US and in Europe right now, not SaaS. But the principle is the same: Startups just move to where the money / growth is.