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This has been parenting for the last several thousand years. I say this not to be flippant or sarcastic but rather to ask how our ancestors seemed fine with th

This has been parenting for the last several thousand years. I say this not to be flippant or sarcastic but rather to ask how our ancestors seemed fine with the above but we seem less so? (To be fair, I have 3 kids and totally get why your scenario might lower the odds. I'll say that even with the 1am wakeups, the "I love you!" from a toddler is one of the best feelings ever.)

yoyohello13 2y ago
> ask how our ancestors seemed fine with the above but we seem less so? Maybe they weren’t fine with it. They just didn’t have any other choice. Now we do, and turns out a lot of people choose not to have kids when given the choice. Honestly, I think we will have a rough couple generations, then nature will take its course and humans will reach a new equilibrium that factors in birth control.
- dyauspitr 2y ago
  It’s only a choice if you live purely for yourself. It’s the job of the state to make short sighted, self absorbed thinking like this unpalatable since people can only think in self absorbed, short term ways.
  - yoyohello13 2y ago
    What a misanthropic world view. How about we make it easier for people who want kids to have them, and we stop vilifying people who don’t want kids? There are many ways to contribute to society. Some of the kindest most selfless people I know don’t want kids. It’s fine, humanity will manage.
    - teitoklien 2y ago
      If he is misanthropic , then amigo, Nature is the most misanthropic existence in the whole universe, by your logic, lol.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
toomuchtodo 2y ago
~40% of US and international pregnancies, annually, are unintended. When unintended pregnancies are prevented, there are less children. Educated, empowered women have less children or no children. Desired fertility is less than replacement rate, broadly speaking. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40982392 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40982392 (citations) https://ourworldindata.org/fertility-rate#what-explains-the-declining-fertility-rate https://ourworldindata.org/fertility-rate#what-explains-the-... https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2024/07/25/the-experiences-of-u-s-adults-who-dont-have-children/ https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2024/07/25/the-exp... https://www.axios.com/2024/07/25/adults-no-children-why-pew-data https://www.axios.com/2024/07/25/adults-no-children-why-pew-... > Stunning stat: 64% of young women say they just don't want children, compared to 50% of men. (US specific survey data)
orangecat 2y ago
I say this not to be flippant or sarcastic but rather to ask how our ancestors seemed fine with the above but we seem less so? Life as a non-parent has gotten much better, especially for high earners.
mindwok 2y ago
I believe the answer is that there is far more interesting things to do with your life. It's quite easy to imagine a life where you're occupied up to your mid thirties with things like university, starting a career in a field you're actually interested in, maybe moving locations once or twice, travelling, working overseas. This plays out even at the relationship level: people in their 20's are far less committal, and prefer the freedom to explore what life has to offer. Compare this to even just 50 years ago. These options were limited to the highest classes of society. People tended to settle down and have children because that was the sensible next thing to do in life.
- tsunamifury 2y ago
  I mean yea did that till I got bored at 37/38 and had kids
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    Over half of US households (58.4%) contain no kids, 17.9% are married parents raising kids, 7.4% are single parents. Some have them, many are not. https://www.voronoiapp.com/demographics/Over-Half-of-Households-in-the-US-Dont-Have-Kids--2933 https://www.voronoiapp.com/demographics/Over-Half-of-Househo...
- jazz9k 2y ago
  I did all of this by 30 and started a family shortly after this. Kids are hard (I have two), but I wouldn't change anything. I know multiple single people in their 50s and 60s with no kids and they are all miserable human beings. Another issue is that most of your peers at that age are raising a family and have less time to get together, making it very lonely. If you wait long enough, your friends will retire/kids will move out and they will have time for you again. This doesn't even include the elderly people with no kids that end up alone in a nursing home one day.
  - yoyohello13 2y ago
    What about the elderly people with kids that end up alone in nursing homes? I know a few people in the 50s and 60s with no kids and they are perfectly nice and happy. I also know parents who are real shit bags. Let’s stop this false narrative that people without kids are miserable or selfish or evil in some way. We are all just people, kids or no.
twelve40 2y ago
for the last several thousand years it's been a matter of survival, a help in the fields and your social security, and with a crazy high mortality, had to have many it's objectively hard work that nowadays may not even pay off at all, aside from this feelings part, which to me always has been balanced out with acute paranoia about being responsible for a fragile live human.
losteric 2y ago
Multi-generational families with tighter communities spreading the work. My parents grew up spending a lot of time with their aunts and uncles. I grew up with my parents because they didn't have extended family or friends that could help. Now my generation, I see at least more "family circles" sharing in child care (eg Friday sleepovers at one rotating family, so the other parents can go out). I can't imagine how easy it would be if more grandparents were nearby. Plus it was just cheaper to live back then. Now the norm is both parents work full time to stay barely above water economically, maximizing shareholder value.
EZ-E 2y ago
I think multi generation housing helped where older generations took care of the child when parents were working, that both parents were not necessarily working, and that kids did not need constant supervision in the sense that they could be left to run around as long as you lived outside major urban centers.
neild 2y ago
> I say this not to be flippant or sarcastic but rather to ask how our ancestors seemed fine with the above but we seem less so? Because by and large our female ancestors raised the children, were offered no choice in whether to raise the children, and their opinions of the situation were not recorded.
- yoyohello13 2y ago
  It is kind of humorous that the majority of people advocating for lots and lots of kids seem to be men.
  - horrible-hilde 2y ago
    I find when the people with the least accountability want the most power; many people suffer
Yizahi 2y ago
Single person centuries ago was a weird wizard who was probably secretly communicating with a devil and should be exiled from the village just in case. Or he would just die from the lack of help during the illness or trauma. And most certainly he would starve, from not being able to grow food he requires. Those people didn't have an alternative for kids.
jopsen 2y ago
> This has been parenting for the last several thousand years Maybe, we are treated better than our ancestors. Most certainly this was the case for women. (To be clear, I'm not saying that kids isn't worth it, just that it's hard for a government service to move the needle)

yoyohello13 2y ago

> ask how our ancestors seemed fine with the above but we seem less so? Maybe they weren’t fine with it. They just didn’t have any other choice. Now we do, and turns out a lot of people choose not to have kids when given the choice. Honestly, I think we will have a rough couple generations, then nature will take its course and humans will reach a new equilibrium that factors in birth control.

dyauspitr 2y ago
It’s only a choice if you live purely for yourself. It’s the job of the state to make short sighted, self absorbed thinking like this unpalatable since people can only think in self absorbed, short term ways.
- yoyohello13 2y ago
  What a misanthropic world view. How about we make it easier for people who want kids to have them, and we stop vilifying people who don’t want kids? There are many ways to contribute to society. Some of the kindest most selfless people I know don’t want kids. It’s fine, humanity will manage.
  - teitoklien 2y ago
    If he is misanthropic , then amigo, Nature is the most misanthropic existence in the whole universe, by your logic, lol.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

toomuchtodo 2y ago

~40% of US and international pregnancies, annually, are unintended. When unintended pregnancies are prevented, there are less children. Educated, empowered women have less children or no children. Desired fertility is less than replacement rate, broadly speaking. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40982392 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40982392 (citations) https://ourworldindata.org/fertility-rate#what-explains-the-declining-fertility-rate https://ourworldindata.org/fertility-rate#what-explains-the-... https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2024/07/25/the-experiences-of-u-s-adults-who-dont-have-children/ https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2024/07/25/the-exp... https://www.axios.com/2024/07/25/adults-no-children-why-pew-data https://www.axios.com/2024/07/25/adults-no-children-why-pew-... > Stunning stat: 64% of young women say they just don't want children, compared to 50% of men. (US specific survey data)

orangecat 2y ago

I say this not to be flippant or sarcastic but rather to ask how our ancestors seemed fine with the above but we seem less so? Life as a non-parent has gotten much better, especially for high earners.

mindwok 2y ago

I believe the answer is that there is far more interesting things to do with your life. It's quite easy to imagine a life where you're occupied up to your mid thirties with things like university, starting a career in a field you're actually interested in, maybe moving locations once or twice, travelling, working overseas. This plays out even at the relationship level: people in their 20's are far less committal, and prefer the freedom to explore what life has to offer. Compare this to even just 50 years ago. These options were limited to the highest classes of society. People tended to settle down and have children because that was the sensible next thing to do in life.

tsunamifury 2y ago
I mean yea did that till I got bored at 37/38 and had kids
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  Over half of US households (58.4%) contain no kids, 17.9% are married parents raising kids, 7.4% are single parents. Some have them, many are not. https://www.voronoiapp.com/demographics/Over-Half-of-Households-in-the-US-Dont-Have-Kids--2933 https://www.voronoiapp.com/demographics/Over-Half-of-Househo...
jazz9k 2y ago
I did all of this by 30 and started a family shortly after this. Kids are hard (I have two), but I wouldn't change anything. I know multiple single people in their 50s and 60s with no kids and they are all miserable human beings. Another issue is that most of your peers at that age are raising a family and have less time to get together, making it very lonely. If you wait long enough, your friends will retire/kids will move out and they will have time for you again. This doesn't even include the elderly people with no kids that end up alone in a nursing home one day.
- yoyohello13 2y ago
  What about the elderly people with kids that end up alone in nursing homes? I know a few people in the 50s and 60s with no kids and they are perfectly nice and happy. I also know parents who are real shit bags. Let’s stop this false narrative that people without kids are miserable or selfish or evil in some way. We are all just people, kids or no.

twelve40 2y ago

for the last several thousand years it's been a matter of survival, a help in the fields and your social security, and with a crazy high mortality, had to have many it's objectively hard work that nowadays may not even pay off at all, aside from this feelings part, which to me always has been balanced out with acute paranoia about being responsible for a fragile live human.

losteric 2y ago

Multi-generational families with tighter communities spreading the work. My parents grew up spending a lot of time with their aunts and uncles. I grew up with my parents because they didn't have extended family or friends that could help. Now my generation, I see at least more "family circles" sharing in child care (eg Friday sleepovers at one rotating family, so the other parents can go out). I can't imagine how easy it would be if more grandparents were nearby. Plus it was just cheaper to live back then. Now the norm is both parents work full time to stay barely above water economically, maximizing shareholder value.

EZ-E 2y ago

I think multi generation housing helped where older generations took care of the child when parents were working, that both parents were not necessarily working, and that kids did not need constant supervision in the sense that they could be left to run around as long as you lived outside major urban centers.

neild 2y ago

> I say this not to be flippant or sarcastic but rather to ask how our ancestors seemed fine with the above but we seem less so? Because by and large our female ancestors raised the children, were offered no choice in whether to raise the children, and their opinions of the situation were not recorded.

yoyohello13 2y ago
It is kind of humorous that the majority of people advocating for lots and lots of kids seem to be men.
- horrible-hilde 2y ago
  I find when the people with the least accountability want the most power; many people suffer

Yizahi 2y ago

Single person centuries ago was a weird wizard who was probably secretly communicating with a devil and should be exiled from the village just in case. Or he would just die from the lack of help during the illness or trauma. And most certainly he would starve, from not being able to grow food he requires. Those people didn't have an alternative for kids.

jopsen 2y ago

> This has been parenting for the last several thousand years Maybe, we are treated better than our ancestors. Most certainly this was the case for women. (To be clear, I'm not saying that kids isn't worth it, just that it's hard for a government service to move the needle)