4 ms·

The list of fake concerns they list are not the real and very valid concerns I have seen. This addresses nothing.

the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
> This addresses nothing. This does in-fact address quite a bit, because they have change their stance with this update. Previously even LAN only mode required to go via their bambu connect system, now you can switch it to developer mode and talk freely via MQTT to the printer.
- progbits 2y ago
  But when you buy the printer you still need to give it internet access / connect via their app, right?
  - the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
    I'm not sure why you would need to give it internet access. I think even the firmware updates work via SD card.
    - nullc 2y ago
      They just introduced firmware updates via SD card in the most recent released version, prior to that you had to put the printer online and associate it with an account to get firmware updates. But yes today there is no need to use their cloud services unless you want to control the printer with their phone app. And the printer works totally fine completely isolated from the internet. The now aborted proposed update would have required using a binary shim from bambu with an embedded 1 year lifetime SSL cert to speak the the printer at all, even when in lan mode.
      - LouisvilleGeek 2y ago
        Bambu Companion (unfortunately iPhone only) does more than Handy and works on LAN. Using it today in fact! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZpDQN9zgUI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZpDQN9zgUI
  - BeefWellington 2y ago
    You do not need to give it internet access for LAN mode to function, but you lose a LOT of features that the cloud app and mobile app give you. For example, you can no longer do anything with the camera in LAN mode, even from the official Bambu Studio app. So no timelapses or ability to check in on it from even just elsewhere in my house. There's also other limitations of it in features I don't really use, for example IIRC the RFID stuff they do with their print spools stops working.
- TechIsCool 2y ago
  Didn't we hear this tune from Sony in the Playstation 3 days with Developer mode and then it slowly faded away after a couple years of application/product releases...
- vvanders 2y ago
  You could already talk freely to the MQTT on the printer and it was already secured with a unique password. This feels like making it a second class feature that could disappear at a future point.
  - the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
    That is obviously correct, but this is a meaningful improvement over what their initial plan was.
    - rowanG077 2y ago
      That doesn't seem obvious to me. It's not unthinkable their plan is: - Want to introduce x, but we are worried what our userbase thinks. - Introduce something way more ridiculous y that subsumes x. - Rollback y but not x because of backlash. Now they look like a company that listens to their users and they got what they wanted.
      - satvikpendem 2y ago
        Ah the classic door in the face technique https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Door-in-the-face_technique https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Door-in-the-face_technique
      - madeofpalk 2y ago
        They’ve suffered real brand damage. Any of the changes (original, or these) seem like they would win over unconvinced potential customers, yet they’ve actively turned some away.
    - vvanders 2y ago
      I don't really see what having a "developer mode" offers here beyond the existing solution. The current mqtt is already locked down with a unique password and AFAIK the endpoint was read-only anyway. Don't get me wrong I'm glad they're responding to feedback but the feedback shouldn't have been required in the first place. I'm all for better security on products(esp ones that heat up to 300C!) but interoperability with open standards makes it a better product overall and given the direction we've seen in the IoT space I think they've done quite a bit of damage(even if not intentionally) by not taking more care in this area.
- sho_hn 2y ago
  Why should I switch to "developer mode" to talk to a computer I own on my own network?
  - parasubvert 2y ago
    You don't need to. You can use their Bambu Connect client in LAN mode. Or you can turn off security and use "developer mode", aka. "how things work today" mode, if you want to do things the old / insecure way.
    - sho_hn 2y ago
      Insecure for who? What's the threat vector?
      - hWuxH 2y ago
        I wouldn't call it more or less secure. You're just on your own and should expect this (internal) API to have breaking changes at any time.
fearoffish 2y ago
Would you be able to elaborate on the ones you’ve seen?
iLoveOncall 2y ago
The main concern that was raised was that you couldn't send print jobs from other slicers anymore, and this article explains why this isn't the case in the section titled "How Bambu Connect Works", taking OrcaSlicer as an example. How does it not address the concerns of people?
- geerlingguy 2y ago
  Judging by the PR thread in OrcaSlicer's GitHub repo, not all users are happy with the proposed fix, requiring users to install Bambu Connect on their computers (which currently doesn't run on Linux, IIRC?) to be able to use the new OrcaSlicer to Bambu workflow... https://github.com/SoftFever/OrcaSlicer/pull/8103 https://github.com/SoftFever/OrcaSlicer/pull/8103
  - ipv6ipv4 2y ago
    Tellingly, this pull request is coming from a Bambu Lab employee. I think the OrcaSlicer maintainers should tell Bambu Lab to pound sand with this change.
    - iLoveOncall 2y ago
      > I think the OrcaSlicer maintainers should tell Bambu Lab to pound sand with this change. Hum, the alternative is OrcaSlicer stops working with Bambu printers...
      - ipv6ipv4 2y ago
        You mean Bambu Lab broke compatibility with OrcaSlicer and every other slicer out there. I don't know if the OrcaSlicer maintainers feel this way. But if they feel that Bambu Lab is stabbing them in the back, they don't have to jump when Bambu Lab tells them to (that's pretty much the raison d'être of open source).
        iLoveOncall 2y ago
wildzzz 2y ago
These companies always pick the most ridiculous tinfoil hat bullshit list of complaints to debunk when trying to explain why they want to close off their API. The real reason almost always comes down to money. The mention of Panda Touch is very telling. While I'm sure Bambu doesn't want to maintain documentation for a non-public (is that the right term)? API, they definitely don't want other companies making money off their ecosystem.
- rpearl 2y ago
  who cares if Panda Touch/BigTreeTech was making money off the ecosystem? it did nothing more than sell more bambu printers. It's not net-zero--money for BigTreeTech is not coming out of Bambu's pockets; I seriously doubt it was net-negative for Bambu.
  - sitkack 2y ago
    Having 2nd and 3rd party support only make an ecosystem more robust. This whole kerfuffle only sours me to them. I like the printer but the desktop software quality is low and features in LAN mode are not available for what one can only think of as a shity move to Hoover up data for the enshitification
  - Jzush 2y ago
    Because the writing on the wall is that this was always meant to be a subscription based, continual revenue stream for Bamboo Labs. They are just edging that direction. Whether or not it’s simply greed or that they didn’t make as much selling the printers as they had thought. The next step to closing an API and killing 3rd party interactions is almost always so they can introduce some form of continuous monetization scheme. That was always something that rubbed me the wrong way with Bamboo Labs. They threw an absolutely obscene amount of money at influencers. Essentially buying a ringing endorsement from nearly the whole hobbyist community and made their brand a household name. The time was right to pull the switch.
- VogonPoetry 2y ago
  What if this is not about closing off an API. Maintaining a stable API is difficult - especially if mistakes were made in earlier designs (no versioning, bad abstraction, wrong protocol...) and there is a plan to fix things in the future. Only the maintainer of an API knows what the future plans are. Not making future plans public is the way to avoid Osbourne incidents and to actually deliver real things, not just vacuous promises. From my dabbling with MQTT, Tasmota and home built sensors; MQTT has no versioning and limited hierarchy in the pub / sub model. I'm not surprised Bambu didn't want a 3rd Party product to "integrate" with it. (Disclaimer, I don't know what it is used for, I don't have the products) In my experience, if you need to fix something that has an undesigned API or needs interfaces or communications methods to change, what you do is build a "New Interface" with what you want and temporarily bridge it to the old one. The desired plan is, once everyone moves to the new interface, the old things can be sunset. Sadly, this is the utopian view. From what I've seen, 3rd Parties often give the middle finger and just keep using the old stuff. The 3rd parties or customers then complain bitterly when the "New Interface" only comes out - the "blame", rightly or wrongly, is usually directed at the software update. Shouldn't 3rd Parties also be held to account and have a duty to maintain their integrations? Building, supporting and evolving products is challenging - I've rarely see people put the right structure in place for v2.0, v3.0 when frantically working to get v1.0 out. Mistakes will be made and they are very, very expensive to fix (reputation, engineering time, QA) in the future. From the statement made, I await a response from Panda Touch - will they commit to fixing their product and inform their customers?

> This addresses nothing. This does in-fact address quite a bit, because they have change their stance with this update. Previously even LAN only mode required to go via their bambu connect system, now you can switch it to developer mode and talk freely via MQTT to the printer.

progbits 2y ago
But when you buy the printer you still need to give it internet access / connect via their app, right?
- the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
  I'm not sure why you would need to give it internet access. I think even the firmware updates work via SD card.
  - nullc 2y ago
    They just introduced firmware updates via SD card in the most recent released version, prior to that you had to put the printer online and associate it with an account to get firmware updates. But yes today there is no need to use their cloud services unless you want to control the printer with their phone app. And the printer works totally fine completely isolated from the internet. The now aborted proposed update would have required using a binary shim from bambu with an embedded 1 year lifetime SSL cert to speak the the printer at all, even when in lan mode.
    - LouisvilleGeek 2y ago
      Bambu Companion (unfortunately iPhone only) does more than Handy and works on LAN. Using it today in fact! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZpDQN9zgUI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZpDQN9zgUI
- BeefWellington 2y ago
  You do not need to give it internet access for LAN mode to function, but you lose a LOT of features that the cloud app and mobile app give you. For example, you can no longer do anything with the camera in LAN mode, even from the official Bambu Studio app. So no timelapses or ability to check in on it from even just elsewhere in my house. There's also other limitations of it in features I don't really use, for example IIRC the RFID stuff they do with their print spools stops working.
TechIsCool 2y ago
Didn't we hear this tune from Sony in the Playstation 3 days with Developer mode and then it slowly faded away after a couple years of application/product releases...
vvanders 2y ago
You could already talk freely to the MQTT on the printer and it was already secured with a unique password. This feels like making it a second class feature that could disappear at a future point.
- the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
  That is obviously correct, but this is a meaningful improvement over what their initial plan was.
  - rowanG077 2y ago
    That doesn't seem obvious to me. It's not unthinkable their plan is: - Want to introduce x, but we are worried what our userbase thinks. - Introduce something way more ridiculous y that subsumes x. - Rollback y but not x because of backlash. Now they look like a company that listens to their users and they got what they wanted.
    - satvikpendem 2y ago
      Ah the classic door in the face technique https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Door-in-the-face_technique https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Door-in-the-face_technique
    - madeofpalk 2y ago
      They’ve suffered real brand damage. Any of the changes (original, or these) seem like they would win over unconvinced potential customers, yet they’ve actively turned some away.
  - vvanders 2y ago
    I don't really see what having a "developer mode" offers here beyond the existing solution. The current mqtt is already locked down with a unique password and AFAIK the endpoint was read-only anyway. Don't get me wrong I'm glad they're responding to feedback but the feedback shouldn't have been required in the first place. I'm all for better security on products(esp ones that heat up to 300C!) but interoperability with open standards makes it a better product overall and given the direction we've seen in the IoT space I think they've done quite a bit of damage(even if not intentionally) by not taking more care in this area.
sho_hn 2y ago
Why should I switch to "developer mode" to talk to a computer I own on my own network?
- parasubvert 2y ago
  You don't need to. You can use their Bambu Connect client in LAN mode. Or you can turn off security and use "developer mode", aka. "how things work today" mode, if you want to do things the old / insecure way.
  - sho_hn 2y ago
    Insecure for who? What's the threat vector?
    - hWuxH 2y ago
      I wouldn't call it more or less secure. You're just on your own and should expect this (internal) API to have breaking changes at any time.

fearoffish 2y ago

Would you be able to elaborate on the ones you’ve seen?

iLoveOncall 2y ago

The main concern that was raised was that you couldn't send print jobs from other slicers anymore, and this article explains why this isn't the case in the section titled "How Bambu Connect Works", taking OrcaSlicer as an example. How does it not address the concerns of people?

geerlingguy 2y ago
Judging by the PR thread in OrcaSlicer's GitHub repo, not all users are happy with the proposed fix, requiring users to install Bambu Connect on their computers (which currently doesn't run on Linux, IIRC?) to be able to use the new OrcaSlicer to Bambu workflow... https://github.com/SoftFever/OrcaSlicer/pull/8103 https://github.com/SoftFever/OrcaSlicer/pull/8103
- ipv6ipv4 2y ago
  Tellingly, this pull request is coming from a Bambu Lab employee. I think the OrcaSlicer maintainers should tell Bambu Lab to pound sand with this change.
  - iLoveOncall 2y ago
    > I think the OrcaSlicer maintainers should tell Bambu Lab to pound sand with this change. Hum, the alternative is OrcaSlicer stops working with Bambu printers...
    - ipv6ipv4 2y ago
      You mean Bambu Lab broke compatibility with OrcaSlicer and every other slicer out there. I don't know if the OrcaSlicer maintainers feel this way. But if they feel that Bambu Lab is stabbing them in the back, they don't have to jump when Bambu Lab tells them to (that's pretty much the raison d'être of open source).
      - iLoveOncall 2y ago

wildzzz 2y ago

These companies always pick the most ridiculous tinfoil hat bullshit list of complaints to debunk when trying to explain why they want to close off their API. The real reason almost always comes down to money. The mention of Panda Touch is very telling. While I'm sure Bambu doesn't want to maintain documentation for a non-public (is that the right term)? API, they definitely don't want other companies making money off their ecosystem.

rpearl 2y ago
who cares if Panda Touch/BigTreeTech was making money off the ecosystem? it did nothing more than sell more bambu printers. It's not net-zero--money for BigTreeTech is not coming out of Bambu's pockets; I seriously doubt it was net-negative for Bambu.
- sitkack 2y ago
  Having 2nd and 3rd party support only make an ecosystem more robust. This whole kerfuffle only sours me to them. I like the printer but the desktop software quality is low and features in LAN mode are not available for what one can only think of as a shity move to Hoover up data for the enshitification
- Jzush 2y ago
  Because the writing on the wall is that this was always meant to be a subscription based, continual revenue stream for Bamboo Labs. They are just edging that direction. Whether or not it’s simply greed or that they didn’t make as much selling the printers as they had thought. The next step to closing an API and killing 3rd party interactions is almost always so they can introduce some form of continuous monetization scheme. That was always something that rubbed me the wrong way with Bamboo Labs. They threw an absolutely obscene amount of money at influencers. Essentially buying a ringing endorsement from nearly the whole hobbyist community and made their brand a household name. The time was right to pull the switch.
VogonPoetry 2y ago
What if this is not about closing off an API. Maintaining a stable API is difficult - especially if mistakes were made in earlier designs (no versioning, bad abstraction, wrong protocol...) and there is a plan to fix things in the future. Only the maintainer of an API knows what the future plans are. Not making future plans public is the way to avoid Osbourne incidents and to actually deliver real things, not just vacuous promises. From my dabbling with MQTT, Tasmota and home built sensors; MQTT has no versioning and limited hierarchy in the pub / sub model. I'm not surprised Bambu didn't want a 3rd Party product to "integrate" with it. (Disclaimer, I don't know what it is used for, I don't have the products) In my experience, if you need to fix something that has an undesigned API or needs interfaces or communications methods to change, what you do is build a "New Interface" with what you want and temporarily bridge it to the old one. The desired plan is, once everyone moves to the new interface, the old things can be sunset. Sadly, this is the utopian view. From what I've seen, 3rd Parties often give the middle finger and just keep using the old stuff. The 3rd parties or customers then complain bitterly when the "New Interface" only comes out - the "blame", rightly or wrongly, is usually directed at the software update. Shouldn't 3rd Parties also be held to account and have a duty to maintain their integrations? Building, supporting and evolving products is challenging - I've rarely see people put the right structure in place for v2.0, v3.0 when frantically working to get v1.0 out. Mistakes will be made and they are very, very expensive to fix (reputation, engineering time, QA) in the future. From the statement made, I await a response from Panda Touch - will they commit to fixing their product and inform their customers?