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If you're assertive and the other party keeps pushing you, what is the outcome? Trump has made it clear he will use US power to humiliate Europe while respectin

by mola 2y ago

If you're assertive and the other party keeps pushing you, what is the outcome? Trump has made it clear he will use US power to humiliate Europe while respecting their adversaries. If Europe becomes more assertive, a confrontation,probably a bloody one, will happen.

duxup 2y ago
>If you're assertive and the other party keeps pushing you, what is the outcome? Disagreement? People do that all the time.
- mola 2y ago
  And people who only honor power usually solve these disagreements using violence. To avoid this outcome being common, we created a monopoly on violence inside states so disagreements have to be solved via courts and not violence. We don't have this in geo politics.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
throw-the-towel 2y ago
This is exactly the Kremlin's rhetoric behind invading Ukraine. "Oh, the Evil West made us go to war!" As if you couldn't just, you know, not go to war.
- mola 2y ago
  Yes,but Putin can hardly be described as non confrontational. His whole image is based on power. European leaders and voters on the other hand are less so. (They're getting there though) What I'm saying is that if you'll have Europe embrace a more putinistic style AND try to dominate them, you'll get a war. Russia is already in that position, so you are already dealing with an assertive opponent who only believe in power. And you got war. So I'm not saying that Putin's rhetoric is correct. but it is a fact that it causes war. In Europe's case it's avoidable if you don't go that route.
  - wbl 2y ago
    The war is already here. We just have a choice: dissuade Putin by imposing costs or let him escalate his aggression.
    - roenxi 2y ago
      There are a lot of options. The most successful option I've ever seen was the international response to the US invasion of Iraq - a strongly worded letter and let them wreck themselves slowly with constant wars. The US is being forced into a more pacifist stance because they can't afford to finance their own aggression and this Chinese are reminding them that peace and prosperity are linked. The USSR already collapsed because Russia couldn't afford to control Eastern Europe so we already know that Russia can't handle that sort of expansion. The sensible thing would be to pull NATO back to more reasonable boundaries and leave the Russians alone. Maybe ally with them to oppose the Chinese or support India against China. Point them East instead of forcing them to militarise to the West. What actually happened only really makes sense in context of the famous and rather concerning Trump-Biden debate. If that is the quality of the US's diplomatic head then it is easy to explain why the US policy went so far astray.
      - phatfish 2y ago
        Russia has no interest in the far East, apart from the natural resources it is an empty wilderness. They want control of the populations of Eastern Europe again, hence the invasion of Ukraine. Without NATO more countries than Ukraine and Georgia would be at risk of war with Russia.
      - wbl 2y ago
        Russia signed no less than four agreements over 50 years reiterating that countries can join their own alliances. That's in addition to the commitments to territorial integrity of Ukraine. Russia is not going to ally with the US against China even if we let them rape and murder Ukraine to their black hearts content. They want to dominate Europe and share the values of our authoritarian adversaries.
      - 2y ago

by mola 2y ago

duxup 2y ago

>If you're assertive and the other party keeps pushing you, what is the outcome? Disagreement? People do that all the time.

mola 2y ago
And people who only honor power usually solve these disagreements using violence. To avoid this outcome being common, we created a monopoly on violence inside states so disagreements have to be solved via courts and not violence. We don't have this in geo politics.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

throw-the-towel 2y ago

This is exactly the Kremlin's rhetoric behind invading Ukraine. "Oh, the Evil West made us go to war!" As if you couldn't just, you know, not go to war.

mola 2y ago
Yes,but Putin can hardly be described as non confrontational. His whole image is based on power. European leaders and voters on the other hand are less so. (They're getting there though) What I'm saying is that if you'll have Europe embrace a more putinistic style AND try to dominate them, you'll get a war. Russia is already in that position, so you are already dealing with an assertive opponent who only believe in power. And you got war. So I'm not saying that Putin's rhetoric is correct. but it is a fact that it causes war. In Europe's case it's avoidable if you don't go that route.
- wbl 2y ago
  The war is already here. We just have a choice: dissuade Putin by imposing costs or let him escalate his aggression.
  - roenxi 2y ago
    There are a lot of options. The most successful option I've ever seen was the international response to the US invasion of Iraq - a strongly worded letter and let them wreck themselves slowly with constant wars. The US is being forced into a more pacifist stance because they can't afford to finance their own aggression and this Chinese are reminding them that peace and prosperity are linked. The USSR already collapsed because Russia couldn't afford to control Eastern Europe so we already know that Russia can't handle that sort of expansion. The sensible thing would be to pull NATO back to more reasonable boundaries and leave the Russians alone. Maybe ally with them to oppose the Chinese or support India against China. Point them East instead of forcing them to militarise to the West. What actually happened only really makes sense in context of the famous and rather concerning Trump-Biden debate. If that is the quality of the US's diplomatic head then it is easy to explain why the US policy went so far astray.
    - phatfish 2y ago
      Russia has no interest in the far East, apart from the natural resources it is an empty wilderness. They want control of the populations of Eastern Europe again, hence the invasion of Ukraine. Without NATO more countries than Ukraine and Georgia would be at risk of war with Russia.
    - wbl 2y ago
      Russia signed no less than four agreements over 50 years reiterating that countries can join their own alliances. That's in addition to the commitments to territorial integrity of Ukraine. Russia is not going to ally with the US against China even if we let them rape and murder Ukraine to their black hearts content. They want to dominate Europe and share the values of our authoritarian adversaries.
    - 2y ago