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I think it would increase the chances for escalation and war. It's hard to be allies with knives on each other's necks. If the us wants peace and power it shoul

by mola 2y ago

I think it would increase the chances for escalation and war. It's hard to be allies with knives on each other's necks. If the us wants peace and power it should embrace its allies like it did most of last century. If Europe becomes militaristic then it's culture will become militaristic, then will be constantly on the verge of war. It will escalate. I don't think this is really good for the US or anybody else in the long term. Europe should arm up, but US should cultivate a friendly relationship. If Europe would arm up and the US keeps pushing it'll either end up with escalation or US will have to start dismantling European cohesion, both out comes would be bloody. Plus, If this tragedy happens, China would have an easier time dominating.

duxup 2y ago
I thing two parties can be assertive and allies. Plenty of countries don't think the same things and are not at war, and they're not even allies...
- mola 2y ago
  If you're assertive and the other party keeps pushing you, what is the outcome? Trump has made it clear he will use US power to humiliate Europe while respecting their adversaries. If Europe becomes more assertive, a confrontation,probably a bloody one, will happen.
  - duxup 2y ago
    >If you're assertive and the other party keeps pushing you, what is the outcome? Disagreement? People do that all the time.
    - mola 2y ago
      And people who only honor power usually solve these disagreements using violence. To avoid this outcome being common, we created a monopoly on violence inside states so disagreements have to be solved via courts and not violence. We don't have this in geo politics.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
  - throw-the-towel 2y ago
    This is exactly the Kremlin's rhetoric behind invading Ukraine. "Oh, the Evil West made us go to war!" As if you couldn't just, you know, not go to war.
    - mola 2y ago
      Yes,but Putin can hardly be described as non confrontational. His whole image is based on power. European leaders and voters on the other hand are less so. (They're getting there though) What I'm saying is that if you'll have Europe embrace a more putinistic style AND try to dominate them, you'll get a war. Russia is already in that position, so you are already dealing with an assertive opponent who only believe in power. And you got war. So I'm not saying that Putin's rhetoric is correct. but it is a fact that it causes war. In Europe's case it's avoidable if you don't go that route.
      - wbl 2y ago
        The war is already here. We just have a choice: dissuade Putin by imposing costs or let him escalate his aggression.
        roenxi 2y ago
        There are a lot of options. The most successful option I've ever seen was the international response to the US invasion of Iraq - a strongly worded letter and let them wreck themselves slowly with constant wars. The US is being forced into a more pacifist stance because they can't afford to finance their own aggression and this Chinese are reminding them that peace and prosperity are linked. The USSR already collapsed because Russia couldn't afford to control Eastern Europe so we already know that Russia can't handle that sort of expansion. The sensible thing would be to pull NATO back to more reasonable boundaries and leave the Russians alone. Maybe ally with them to oppose the Chinese or support India against China. Point them East instead of forcing them to militarise to the West. What actually happened only really makes sense in context of the famous and rather concerning Trump-Biden debate. If that is the quality of the US's diplomatic head then it is easy to explain why the US policy went so far astray.
impossiblefork 2y ago
Constantly on the verge of war with whom? There is no reason for EU-US war, as there is no possibility of gaining anything. Neither can invade the territory of the other. Militarism and aggression from the EU would presumably be directed east.

by mola 2y ago

duxup 2y ago

I thing two parties can be assertive and allies. Plenty of countries don't think the same things and are not at war, and they're not even allies...

mola 2y ago
If you're assertive and the other party keeps pushing you, what is the outcome? Trump has made it clear he will use US power to humiliate Europe while respecting their adversaries. If Europe becomes more assertive, a confrontation,probably a bloody one, will happen.
- duxup 2y ago
  >If you're assertive and the other party keeps pushing you, what is the outcome? Disagreement? People do that all the time.
  - mola 2y ago
    And people who only honor power usually solve these disagreements using violence. To avoid this outcome being common, we created a monopoly on violence inside states so disagreements have to be solved via courts and not violence. We don't have this in geo politics.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
- throw-the-towel 2y ago
  This is exactly the Kremlin's rhetoric behind invading Ukraine. "Oh, the Evil West made us go to war!" As if you couldn't just, you know, not go to war.
  - mola 2y ago
    Yes,but Putin can hardly be described as non confrontational. His whole image is based on power. European leaders and voters on the other hand are less so. (They're getting there though) What I'm saying is that if you'll have Europe embrace a more putinistic style AND try to dominate them, you'll get a war. Russia is already in that position, so you are already dealing with an assertive opponent who only believe in power. And you got war. So I'm not saying that Putin's rhetoric is correct. but it is a fact that it causes war. In Europe's case it's avoidable if you don't go that route.
    - wbl 2y ago
      The war is already here. We just have a choice: dissuade Putin by imposing costs or let him escalate his aggression.
      - roenxi 2y ago
        There are a lot of options. The most successful option I've ever seen was the international response to the US invasion of Iraq - a strongly worded letter and let them wreck themselves slowly with constant wars. The US is being forced into a more pacifist stance because they can't afford to finance their own aggression and this Chinese are reminding them that peace and prosperity are linked. The USSR already collapsed because Russia couldn't afford to control Eastern Europe so we already know that Russia can't handle that sort of expansion. The sensible thing would be to pull NATO back to more reasonable boundaries and leave the Russians alone. Maybe ally with them to oppose the Chinese or support India against China. Point them East instead of forcing them to militarise to the West. What actually happened only really makes sense in context of the famous and rather concerning Trump-Biden debate. If that is the quality of the US's diplomatic head then it is easy to explain why the US policy went so far astray.

impossiblefork 2y ago

Constantly on the verge of war with whom? There is no reason for EU-US war, as there is no possibility of gaining anything. Neither can invade the territory of the other. Militarism and aggression from the EU would presumably be directed east.