7 ms·

This is just a small country getting strong-armed by the US. You can be as pro NATO, pro US, pro "transatlantic relations" as you can and they'll still screw yo

This is just a small country getting strong-armed by the US. You can be as pro NATO, pro US, pro "transatlantic relations" as you can and they'll still screw you over. Seriously I can't wait for the EU to get their shit together so we can stop being such pushovers.

lokar 2y ago
Then be prepared to spend 5%+ of gdp on defense, or become a Russian satellite.
- bigmattystyles 2y ago
  Is that so bad if that’s the cost of independence? Go after profiteers ruthlessly however.
  - lokar 2y ago
    I think it would be a better system (as an American)
- mschild 2y ago
  5%+ would likely put Europe ahead of the US in spending on military. Even 3%+ would be such a significant amount of noney that almost noone except the US could compete. That said, its a price we should pay instead of relying on the US as a partner.
  - trgn 2y ago
    Us and Israel show what the downstream effects on tech innovation are. It may not be a coincidence
    - megous 2y ago
      There's innovation without having to constantly kill and terrorize your neighbors and provoke wars to test your tech.
      - trgn 2y ago
        no I understand that part, it just seems that at least today, there is a relation between a dynamic tech industry and high military spending. There's some historical evidence too (gps, internet, ...). Europe has a really stagnant tech industry (comparatively speaking), and low military spending. anyway, maybe the relation is spurious, e.g. maybe china is a good counterexample here (?)
        megous 2y ago
        Europe is quite varied, you'd probably need to look at individual countries and do a more fine grained comparison between those, because they have their own differing policies on both military spending (some just buy gear from outside and may not innovate much) and support for innovation/industry or even educational systems (and where they stand on "sit and listen <-> here's a lot of tools and support and freedom/time to experiment" rigidity scale).
        trgn 2y ago
        Startup scene in Europe is where? Berlin, Amsterdam, London, where else?
        megous 2y ago
        I don't understand the relevance of the question. I thought the therad is about innovation, not "startups" (what's that? american style "supergrowth or you go to trash" VC funded companies?)
- microtonal 2y ago
  It's so sad that the relationship between allies has come to the point where NATO Article 5 has become a bargaining chip against privacy/market fairness laws (DSA/DMA). I think to a lot of Europeans it feels like Americans have unilaterally ended a friendship. It's true that Europe and Canada need to invest more in defense, but the balance is currently 755 billion USD (US) vs. 430 billion USD (EU) [1]. So it's certainly not like the MAGA rhetoric pretends. The US has the benefit of being a large nuclear power, but for a long time the US preferred being the nuclear protector to avoid too much proliferation on the continent. Another annoying part of the 'they gotta pay up' Trump/MAGA discourse is that it's starting to sound like a mob wanting protection money. This is not how the NATO agreement works. Countries have to spend 2% of their GDP on defense, but it's not a payment to the US. They could buy Saab Grippens if they wanted to. [1] https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/2024/6/pdf/240617-def-exp-2024-en.pdf https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/2024/6/pd...
  - NickC25 2y ago
    >it's starting to sound like a mob wanting protection money Starting to sound like a mob? He's been at this for his whole adult life.
  - lokar 2y ago
    I certainly find the trump rhetoric distasteful and counterproductive. But I really think the EU would be better off with the ability to defend themselves. Depending on NATO article 5 always introduces a tempting ambiguity, which can lead to miscalculation.
    - microtonal 2y ago
      I agree. Not only does it open the chance of miscalculation, but also makes Europe vulnerable to this kind of blackmailing. It is still sad though. At any rate, it fits the pattern. During his first term he was also more interested in cozying up with autocrats.
      - openrisk 2y ago
- Chris2048 2y ago
  > or become a Russian satellite I'm sceptical Russia has this kind of power anymore, beyond being a proxy for China..
- yapyap 2y ago
  be a US sattelite, be a Russian sattelite. Honestly it feels like the US is also becoming a Russian sattelite with Trump & Elon having quiet gettogethers w Putin.
- impossiblefork 2y ago
  We're 3x as many as the Russians. There's no need for that, unless we need to have a war for some other reason. 5% is what Sweden needed in the 1980s to defend itself from the whole Soviet Union + Warsaw Pact, without the EU and without NATO.
  - mrcnkoba 2y ago
    Never heard of the war between Sweden and Warsaw Pact in the 1980s. Maybe 5% is why it never happened.
- FpUser 2y ago
  FUD
- skrebbel 2y ago
  Fwiw this is kinda what I meant with "for the EU to get their shit together"
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
datadeft 2y ago
Not going to happen when the leaders of the EU are largely unelected career burocrats.
duxup 2y ago
I wish the EU / EU nations were more assertive on any number of topics. More powers involved the better for me even as an American.
- mola 2y ago
  I think it would increase the chances for escalation and war. It's hard to be allies with knives on each other's necks. If the us wants peace and power it should embrace its allies like it did most of last century. If Europe becomes militaristic then it's culture will become militaristic, then will be constantly on the verge of war. It will escalate. I don't think this is really good for the US or anybody else in the long term. Europe should arm up, but US should cultivate a friendly relationship. If Europe would arm up and the US keeps pushing it'll either end up with escalation or US will have to start dismantling European cohesion, both out comes would be bloody. Plus, If this tragedy happens, China would have an easier time dominating.
  - duxup 2y ago
    I thing two parties can be assertive and allies. Plenty of countries don't think the same things and are not at war, and they're not even allies...
    - mola 2y ago
      If you're assertive and the other party keeps pushing you, what is the outcome? Trump has made it clear he will use US power to humiliate Europe while respecting their adversaries. If Europe becomes more assertive, a confrontation,probably a bloody one, will happen.
      - duxup 2y ago
        >If you're assertive and the other party keeps pushing you, what is the outcome? Disagreement? People do that all the time.
        2y ago
cscurmudgeon 2y ago
Wasn't ASML started based on research funded by the US? > In 1997, ASML began studying a shift to using extreme ultraviolet and in 1999 joined a consortium, including Intel and two other U.S. chipmakers, in order to exploit fundamental research conducted by the US Department of Energy. Because the CRADA it operates under is funded by the US taxpayer, licensing must be approved by Congress. It collaborated with the Belgian IMEC and Sematech and turned to Carl Zeiss in Germany for its need of mirrors.[25] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASML_Holding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASML_Holding Before aiming to not be pushovers, EU should probably study the history of their own companies.
- skrebbel 2y ago
  > Wasn't ASML started based on research funded by the US? No. ASML started as a spinoff of ASMI and Philips in 1984. It became hugely successful and effectively a global monopoly in chip production before any of its EUV products shipped. Also, taxpayer money funds lots of research everywhere, and this is then used by companies to make money. Most of that research is public, done at universities. That the US chose to stick an "ours!!" label on some of it doesn't really make that research more special than other taxpayer funded research, in moral terms.
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> This is just a small country getting strong-armed by the US No, it's not. It's ASML looking out for its largest customer. It's Amsterdam looking out for its shipping lanes, as well as for its Nine Eyes partner. Washington absolutely strong arms Europe, but it's strategically aligned with the Netherlands. Like, just think about the guy coming into the White House. What about him screams quiet, behind-the-scenes diplomatic win taker?
throw-the-towel 2y ago
Why don't you see it as giving a concession to your ally?
MangoCoffee 2y ago
Maybe this is a wake up call for Europe to take its own defense seriously instead of relying on the US Both Bush and Obama have called for NATO members to increase their military budgets beside Trump. It took Russia invading Ukraine for NATO members to finally take this issue seriously. The significant geopolitical shake-up of the past few years should serve as a clear warning to Europeans to prioritize their own defense instead of depending on the USA.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
harrall 2y ago
The technology that makes ASML’s machines possible (EUV lasers) was researched by the US government with taxpayer money and ASML bought the San Diego-based US company that was producing the technology.

lokar 2y ago

Then be prepared to spend 5%+ of gdp on defense, or become a Russian satellite.

bigmattystyles 2y ago
Is that so bad if that’s the cost of independence? Go after profiteers ruthlessly however.
- lokar 2y ago
  I think it would be a better system (as an American)
mschild 2y ago
5%+ would likely put Europe ahead of the US in spending on military. Even 3%+ would be such a significant amount of noney that almost noone except the US could compete. That said, its a price we should pay instead of relying on the US as a partner.
- trgn 2y ago
  Us and Israel show what the downstream effects on tech innovation are. It may not be a coincidence
  - megous 2y ago
    There's innovation without having to constantly kill and terrorize your neighbors and provoke wars to test your tech.
    - trgn 2y ago
      no I understand that part, it just seems that at least today, there is a relation between a dynamic tech industry and high military spending. There's some historical evidence too (gps, internet, ...). Europe has a really stagnant tech industry (comparatively speaking), and low military spending. anyway, maybe the relation is spurious, e.g. maybe china is a good counterexample here (?)
      - megous 2y ago
        Europe is quite varied, you'd probably need to look at individual countries and do a more fine grained comparison between those, because they have their own differing policies on both military spending (some just buy gear from outside and may not innovate much) and support for innovation/industry or even educational systems (and where they stand on "sit and listen <-> here's a lot of tools and support and freedom/time to experiment" rigidity scale).
        trgn 2y ago
        Startup scene in Europe is where? Berlin, Amsterdam, London, where else?
        megous 2y ago
        I don't understand the relevance of the question. I thought the therad is about innovation, not "startups" (what's that? american style "supergrowth or you go to trash" VC funded companies?)
microtonal 2y ago
It's so sad that the relationship between allies has come to the point where NATO Article 5 has become a bargaining chip against privacy/market fairness laws (DSA/DMA). I think to a lot of Europeans it feels like Americans have unilaterally ended a friendship. It's true that Europe and Canada need to invest more in defense, but the balance is currently 755 billion USD (US) vs. 430 billion USD (EU) [1]. So it's certainly not like the MAGA rhetoric pretends. The US has the benefit of being a large nuclear power, but for a long time the US preferred being the nuclear protector to avoid too much proliferation on the continent. Another annoying part of the 'they gotta pay up' Trump/MAGA discourse is that it's starting to sound like a mob wanting protection money. This is not how the NATO agreement works. Countries have to spend 2% of their GDP on defense, but it's not a payment to the US. They could buy Saab Grippens if they wanted to. [1] https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/2024/6/pdf/240617-def-exp-2024-en.pdf https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/2024/6/pd...
- NickC25 2y ago
  >it's starting to sound like a mob wanting protection money Starting to sound like a mob? He's been at this for his whole adult life.
- lokar 2y ago
  I certainly find the trump rhetoric distasteful and counterproductive. But I really think the EU would be better off with the ability to defend themselves. Depending on NATO article 5 always introduces a tempting ambiguity, which can lead to miscalculation.
  - microtonal 2y ago
    I agree. Not only does it open the chance of miscalculation, but also makes Europe vulnerable to this kind of blackmailing. It is still sad though. At any rate, it fits the pattern. During his first term he was also more interested in cozying up with autocrats.
    - openrisk 2y ago
Chris2048 2y ago
> or become a Russian satellite I'm sceptical Russia has this kind of power anymore, beyond being a proxy for China..
yapyap 2y ago
be a US sattelite, be a Russian sattelite. Honestly it feels like the US is also becoming a Russian sattelite with Trump & Elon having quiet gettogethers w Putin.
impossiblefork 2y ago
We're 3x as many as the Russians. There's no need for that, unless we need to have a war for some other reason. 5% is what Sweden needed in the 1980s to defend itself from the whole Soviet Union + Warsaw Pact, without the EU and without NATO.
- mrcnkoba 2y ago
  Never heard of the war between Sweden and Warsaw Pact in the 1980s. Maybe 5% is why it never happened.
FpUser 2y ago
FUD
skrebbel 2y ago
Fwiw this is kinda what I meant with "for the EU to get their shit together"

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

datadeft 2y ago

Not going to happen when the leaders of the EU are largely unelected career burocrats.

duxup 2y ago

I wish the EU / EU nations were more assertive on any number of topics. More powers involved the better for me even as an American.

mola 2y ago
I think it would increase the chances for escalation and war. It's hard to be allies with knives on each other's necks. If the us wants peace and power it should embrace its allies like it did most of last century. If Europe becomes militaristic then it's culture will become militaristic, then will be constantly on the verge of war. It will escalate. I don't think this is really good for the US or anybody else in the long term. Europe should arm up, but US should cultivate a friendly relationship. If Europe would arm up and the US keeps pushing it'll either end up with escalation or US will have to start dismantling European cohesion, both out comes would be bloody. Plus, If this tragedy happens, China would have an easier time dominating.
- duxup 2y ago
  I thing two parties can be assertive and allies. Plenty of countries don't think the same things and are not at war, and they're not even allies...
  - mola 2y ago
    If you're assertive and the other party keeps pushing you, what is the outcome? Trump has made it clear he will use US power to humiliate Europe while respecting their adversaries. If Europe becomes more assertive, a confrontation,probably a bloody one, will happen.
    - duxup 2y ago
      >If you're assertive and the other party keeps pushing you, what is the outcome? Disagreement? People do that all the time.
      - 2y ago

cscurmudgeon 2y ago

Wasn't ASML started based on research funded by the US? > In 1997, ASML began studying a shift to using extreme ultraviolet and in 1999 joined a consortium, including Intel and two other U.S. chipmakers, in order to exploit fundamental research conducted by the US Department of Energy. Because the CRADA it operates under is funded by the US taxpayer, licensing must be approved by Congress. It collaborated with the Belgian IMEC and Sematech and turned to Carl Zeiss in Germany for its need of mirrors.[25] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASML_Holding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASML_Holding Before aiming to not be pushovers, EU should probably study the history of their own companies.

skrebbel 2y ago
> Wasn't ASML started based on research funded by the US? No. ASML started as a spinoff of ASMI and Philips in 1984. It became hugely successful and effectively a global monopoly in chip production before any of its EUV products shipped. Also, taxpayer money funds lots of research everywhere, and this is then used by companies to make money. Most of that research is public, done at universities. That the US chose to stick an "ours!!" label on some of it doesn't really make that research more special than other taxpayer funded research, in moral terms.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> This is just a small country getting strong-armed by the US No, it's not. It's ASML looking out for its largest customer. It's Amsterdam looking out for its shipping lanes, as well as for its Nine Eyes partner. Washington absolutely strong arms Europe, but it's strategically aligned with the Netherlands. Like, just think about the guy coming into the White House. What about him screams quiet, behind-the-scenes diplomatic win taker?

throw-the-towel 2y ago

Why don't you see it as giving a concession to your ally?

MangoCoffee 2y ago

Maybe this is a wake up call for Europe to take its own defense seriously instead of relying on the US Both Bush and Obama have called for NATO members to increase their military budgets beside Trump. It took Russia invading Ukraine for NATO members to finally take this issue seriously. The significant geopolitical shake-up of the past few years should serve as a clear warning to Europeans to prioritize their own defense instead of depending on the USA.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

harrall 2y ago

The technology that makes ASML’s machines possible (EUV lasers) was researched by the US government with taxpayer money and ASML bought the San Diego-based US company that was producing the technology.