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They don't have a choice. ASML licenses the intellectual property for EUV lithography from the US government. Therefore they follow US export control laws on EU

They don't have a choice. ASML licenses the intellectual property for EUV lithography from the US government. Therefore they follow US export control laws on EUV machines.

belter 2y ago
> The US government owns the intellectual property for ASML's EUV lithography. This is false.
- tristanj 2y ago
  From the wikipedia page on EUV: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_ultraviolet_lithography https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_ultraviolet_lithogra... > To address the challenge of EUV lithography, researchers at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, and Sandia National Laboratories were funded in the 1990s to perform basic research into the technical obstacles. The results of this successful effort were disseminated via a public/private partnership Cooperative R&D Agreement (CRADA) with the invention and rights wholly owned by the US government, but licensed and distributed under approval by DOE and Congress.[3] The CRADA consisted of a consortium of private companies and the Labs, manifested as an entity called the Extreme Ultraviolet Limited Liability Company (EUV LLC).[4] > In 2001 SVG was acquired by ASML, leaving ASML as the sole benefactor of the critical technology. Unless the situation has changed, the IP is still owned by the US government, and is licensed to ASML through their acquisition of Silicon Valley Group.
  - dkjaudyeqooe 2y ago
    Those early patents have likely expired.
    - count 2y ago
      The ITAR licensing around their export from the United States and the conditions under which they may be (including flowing down the restrictions clauses) don't expire, generally.
  - belter 2y ago
    From your own reference ( note this had 18 years of R&D by ASML ): "By 2018, ASML succeeded in deploying the intellectual property from the EUV-LLC after several decades of developmental research, with incorporation of European-funded EUCLIDES (Extreme UV Concept Lithography Development System) and long-standing partner German optics manufacturer ZEISS and synchrotron light source supplier Oxford Instruments..."
    - ckastner 2y ago
      > By 2018, ASML succeeded in deploying the intellectual property from the EUV-LLC That explicitly says that the IP is with EUV-LLC (edit: which is of U.S. origin).
      - belter 2y ago
        In 1998, ASML formed a European industrial R&D consortium dubbed ‘EUCLIDES’ (Extreme UV Concept Lithography Development System) with ZEISS and Oxford Instruments. Then EUCLIDES joined forces with the American EUV LLC in 1999... "The CRADA consisted of a consortium of private companies and the Labs, manifested as an entity called the Extreme Ultraviolet Limited Liability Company (EUV LLC)."
        ckastner 2y ago
        You keep pointing out European involvement as if that somehow displaced American involvement (and thus continued U.S. control, the subject of this thread). Again, your first quote explicitly states that EUV-LLC was American. The second quote refers to the "Labs", which in this case were the Lawrence Livermore, Sandia, and Berkeley National Laboratories. Apple may have developed the M4 from the ground up but they still licensed the ISA from ARM.
        belter 2y ago
        The EUV-LLC was 100% financed by the private companies in the consortium, ASML being one. "To access EUV technology, Intel in 1997 formed the EUV LLC, which entered into a cooperative R&D agreement (CRADA) with DOE. As part of this agreement, Intel and its partners would pay $250 million over three years to cover the direct salary costs of government researchers at the national labs and acquire equipment and materials for the labs, as well as cover the costs of its own researchers dedicated to the project. In return, the consortium would have exclusive rights to the technology in the EUV lithography field of use. At the time, it was the largest CRADA ever undertaken." In return, the consortium would have exclusive rights to the technology in the EUV lithography field of use https://issues.org/van_atta/ https://issues.org/van_atta/
amelius 2y ago
> The US government owns Curious how that happened.
- belter 2y ago
  It's not true.
  - alephnerd 2y ago
    It is in the sense that the LLNL owns the EUV IP that ASML implemented, and ASML is using this IP after inheriting it from AMD+Motorola who sold off their stake in EUV LLC. All NatLab-Private partnerships have this kind of a rider. ASML is already starting another partnership with LLNL on next-gen EUV.
KeplerBoy 2y ago
How did this happen? Why does the US gov own the IP of technology developed in the netherlands by a dutch company?
- jmisavage 2y ago
  It’s because the US National Laboratories developed all the initial technology to enable EUV. ASML just builds the machines.
  - belter 2y ago
    Why would state something that is not correct. Cymer is a fully owned company by ASML.
    - ckastner 2y ago
      It seems that you are confusing ownership of the company with licensing of the IP it uses. AMD produces their own x86 under IP licensed by Intel (and vice versa).
      - belter 2y ago
        It seems you are confusing the details and conditions of a contract never disclosed publicly, of base research, where a EU based company spent 20 years and billions of EU funds to create a workable product. In any case if the US adrenaline fueled diplomacy, starts violating hundreds of years old borders of it's allies, respect for ambiguous IP Laws, will be pretty low in the list of priorities. :-)
        ckastner 2y ago
        > It seems you are confusing the details and conditions of a contract never disclosed publicly The details have never been disclosed but it is well known that this agreement fell within the domain of national security and export controls. Here's a press release [1] directly from ASML that references these export controls. Even though this PR actually relaxing DUV controls with respect to the U.S., it reaffirms that "EUV systems are also subject to license requirements." [1]: https://www.asml.com/en/news/press-releases/2024/dutch-governments-updated-export-license-requirement https://www.asml.com/en/news/press-releases/2024/dutch-gover...

They don't have a choice. ASML licenses the intellectual property for EUV lithography from the US government. Therefore they follow US export control laws on EUV machines.

belter 2y ago

> The US government owns the intellectual property for ASML's EUV lithography. This is false.

tristanj 2y ago
From the wikipedia page on EUV: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_ultraviolet_lithography https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_ultraviolet_lithogra... > To address the challenge of EUV lithography, researchers at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, and Sandia National Laboratories were funded in the 1990s to perform basic research into the technical obstacles. The results of this successful effort were disseminated via a public/private partnership Cooperative R&D Agreement (CRADA) with the invention and rights wholly owned by the US government, but licensed and distributed under approval by DOE and Congress.[3] The CRADA consisted of a consortium of private companies and the Labs, manifested as an entity called the Extreme Ultraviolet Limited Liability Company (EUV LLC).[4] > In 2001 SVG was acquired by ASML, leaving ASML as the sole benefactor of the critical technology. Unless the situation has changed, the IP is still owned by the US government, and is licensed to ASML through their acquisition of Silicon Valley Group.
- dkjaudyeqooe 2y ago
  Those early patents have likely expired.
  - count 2y ago
    The ITAR licensing around their export from the United States and the conditions under which they may be (including flowing down the restrictions clauses) don't expire, generally.
- belter 2y ago
  From your own reference ( note this had 18 years of R&D by ASML ): "By 2018, ASML succeeded in deploying the intellectual property from the EUV-LLC after several decades of developmental research, with incorporation of European-funded EUCLIDES (Extreme UV Concept Lithography Development System) and long-standing partner German optics manufacturer ZEISS and synchrotron light source supplier Oxford Instruments..."
  - ckastner 2y ago
    > By 2018, ASML succeeded in deploying the intellectual property from the EUV-LLC That explicitly says that the IP is with EUV-LLC (edit: which is of U.S. origin).
    - belter 2y ago
      In 1998, ASML formed a European industrial R&D consortium dubbed ‘EUCLIDES’ (Extreme UV Concept Lithography Development System) with ZEISS and Oxford Instruments. Then EUCLIDES joined forces with the American EUV LLC in 1999... "The CRADA consisted of a consortium of private companies and the Labs, manifested as an entity called the Extreme Ultraviolet Limited Liability Company (EUV LLC)."
      - ckastner 2y ago
        You keep pointing out European involvement as if that somehow displaced American involvement (and thus continued U.S. control, the subject of this thread). Again, your first quote explicitly states that EUV-LLC was American. The second quote refers to the "Labs", which in this case were the Lawrence Livermore, Sandia, and Berkeley National Laboratories. Apple may have developed the M4 from the ground up but they still licensed the ISA from ARM.
        belter 2y ago
        The EUV-LLC was 100% financed by the private companies in the consortium, ASML being one. "To access EUV technology, Intel in 1997 formed the EUV LLC, which entered into a cooperative R&D agreement (CRADA) with DOE. As part of this agreement, Intel and its partners would pay $250 million over three years to cover the direct salary costs of government researchers at the national labs and acquire equipment and materials for the labs, as well as cover the costs of its own researchers dedicated to the project. In return, the consortium would have exclusive rights to the technology in the EUV lithography field of use. At the time, it was the largest CRADA ever undertaken." In return, the consortium would have exclusive rights to the technology in the EUV lithography field of use https://issues.org/van_atta/ https://issues.org/van_atta/

amelius 2y ago

> The US government owns Curious how that happened.

belter 2y ago
It's not true.
- alephnerd 2y ago
  It is in the sense that the LLNL owns the EUV IP that ASML implemented, and ASML is using this IP after inheriting it from AMD+Motorola who sold off their stake in EUV LLC. All NatLab-Private partnerships have this kind of a rider. ASML is already starting another partnership with LLNL on next-gen EUV.

KeplerBoy 2y ago

How did this happen? Why does the US gov own the IP of technology developed in the netherlands by a dutch company?

jmisavage 2y ago
It’s because the US National Laboratories developed all the initial technology to enable EUV. ASML just builds the machines.
- belter 2y ago
  Why would state something that is not correct. Cymer is a fully owned company by ASML.
  - ckastner 2y ago
    It seems that you are confusing ownership of the company with licensing of the IP it uses. AMD produces their own x86 under IP licensed by Intel (and vice versa).
    - belter 2y ago
      It seems you are confusing the details and conditions of a contract never disclosed publicly, of base research, where a EU based company spent 20 years and billions of EU funds to create a workable product. In any case if the US adrenaline fueled diplomacy, starts violating hundreds of years old borders of it's allies, respect for ambiguous IP Laws, will be pretty low in the list of priorities. :-)
      - ckastner 2y ago
        > It seems you are confusing the details and conditions of a contract never disclosed publicly The details have never been disclosed but it is well known that this agreement fell within the domain of national security and export controls. Here's a press release [1] directly from ASML that references these export controls. Even though this PR actually relaxing DUV controls with respect to the U.S., it reaffirms that "EUV systems are also subject to license requirements." [1]: https://www.asml.com/en/news/press-releases/2024/dutch-governments-updated-export-license-requirement https://www.asml.com/en/news/press-releases/2024/dutch-gover...