6 ms·

If you are surprised this happens given Jan 6 events you have been living under a rock. There is a good chance there will be no more fair elections in US.

_heimdall 2y ago
This was a pretty big talking point during the election, towards the end I didn't go a day without hearing about how Trump will end democracy or how democracy was on the ballot. What the hell happened? For anyone that honestly believes that, why pack up and go home when Trump wins the election?
- NewLogic 2y ago
  America spoke and said they wanted it, what more is there to be said? If there was marching in the streets, it would be torn to shreds by the online grift sphere.
  - _heimdall 2y ago
    If I honestly believed democracy would be ended by the next leader I would be marching in the streets, or better yet finding a group forming a rebellion. Ending democracy is a very serious thing. It shouldn't have been used hollowly by either party, and if it wasn't hollow then people should be standing up to stop it.
    - ModernMech 2y ago
      We did stand up, that was the entire 2024 campaign. We really truly believe the guy who incited the insurrection in 2021 that ended the history of peaceful democratic transitions of power in the USA is going to do more of the same damage to democratic institutions in 2025. Given what happened on 1/6 I don’t know why you see that worry as hollow.
      - _heimdall 2y ago
        I see it as hollow mainly because the democratic party and many of its supporters seemed to go silent after the election. I can only speak for myself, but if I truly believed he would end democracy in a few short years I'd be doing whatever I could to stop it. I say it seems hollow because I just can't imagine it being a serious, real threat and also rolling over.
        ModernMech 2y ago
        > I can only speak for myself, but if I truly believed he would end democracy in a few short years I'd be doing whatever I could to stop it We did do whatever we could to stop it. We tried every avenue available. We tried impeachment twice, but he was protected by his party. The first time they protected him for extorting a bribe from a foreign government. The second time they protected him for inciting an insurrection. We tried the DOJ but he was protected by a federal judge he appointed, and supreme court justices two of which he appointed granted him sweeping immunity from prosecution. We tried to constitutionally disqualify him from running on the basis he incited an insurrection, but again he was protected by judges he appointed. Our last recourse was to run on a pro-democracy candidate during the election but the people rejected her. So we tried everything. But the election was fair. He won. That's that. We tried everything else, and anyway at this point it's too late without resorting to a violent coup, which supporters of democracy won't do. There are no other pro-democratic avenues left to protect democracy from Trump. Sucks it turned out this way, but at least you can't say you weren't warned.
        EnergyAmy 2y ago
        The missing piece of the puzzle is that the DNC does not represent the people, it represents corporations who are just fine with Trump. Your average person is very concerned and is likely to think that Trump does represent a very real danger to democracy. The corporate apparatus that is the DNC made some noise about it to see if they could rile people up into voting for them and that failed.
        ModernMech 2y ago
    - dragontamer 2y ago
      > or better yet finding a group forming a rebellion. You mean like the two assassination attempts vs Trump? Which only made Trump's power greater and consolidated more support? Aggressive actions literally make Trump stronger. That's literally failing to work and we're living in the fallout of that. I'm not sure how to stop Trump but inciting violence seems like the wrong answer to me. Besides, its the US Military. We all know that its impossible to actually rebel vs the Army. What do you want a rebellion to do? Grab a couple of AR15s while the Army literally brings in tanks? ----------- Aggression is a failing move. But so was a political campaign that tried to convince people of Trump's dangers. So that's that. Or are you seriously trying to bait people into arguing that more violence was the answer here? Did you literally forget the election already?
      - _heimdall 2y ago
        Aggression is often a failing move, yes. And I'm not saying we should go there. What I am saying is that I don't understand what happened to everyone claiming democracy would be over, and that if the threat is real I don't see marches solving it.
        dragontamer 2y ago
        Because Aggression is a failing move. What more "marching" do you want? The only escalating point now is violence because all the marching from 2024, 2020 and all other years accomplished nothing. Indeed: even just "marching" in 2020 was apparently "too violent" as Black Lives Matter (a march to protect African American lives) somehow got twisted by Donald Trump and his politics into a "violent" march. I think it makes sense that people are cautious about the next steps. But what the hell are you wanting people to march for? To deny the election and cause a liberal Jan 6th event? What are you even talking about? Even if people did that, it'd only play to Donald Trump's persecution complex and he'd get more power anyway. And its not like anyone would be marching to force Biden or Kamala back into office, neither candidate is popular enough. ------ The actual move is to retreat from Federal level politics and hold firm at the State-level side. If the Federal Government is lost, the focus should be on more local bastions and defenses. The fact remains: the resistance wants to be peaceful and non-violent. You've taken away the voice of the peaceful ones by labeling them as violent at every turn. So we know marching doesn't work anymore. Its not like the movement is dead, its just resting for now as people figure out what the new plans are. But its clear that a direct assault vs this ideology isn't working.
  - ActorNightly 2y ago
    To be fair, America said "it really doesn't matter who is president". Which is arguably worse.
- ANewFormation 2y ago
  Because it was mostly being astroturfed. Democracy obviously isn't going to end in any way, shape, or fashion under Trump. And so the organizations pushing these lies need to move onto the next lies to keep the rage and fear going. Maybe this time around it'll be Trump is secretly controlled by China - must be why he reversed the TikTok ban. His campaign is large enough that there's probably some guy in it, no more than a degree or two separation away, banging a Chinese spy a la Eric Swalwell. Tie it to Trump, start a new committee of absurdity and away we go. It'd actually provide some logic to banning TikTok which was just politically absurd when Trump would predictably reverse that, to much fanfare.
  - drawkward 2y ago
    While i dont think Democracy will end under Trump, it is manifestly not obvious that it won't. The president-elect literally floated the idea that his voters wont ever have to vote again if he won.
    - blisterpeanuts 2y ago
      This was clarified on Snopes; he was referring to groups such as fundamentalist Christians who rarely vote, urging them to come out this one time and vote. Not very eloquently worded, perhaps, but certainly his intent, as explained by spokespeople and by himself in subsequent interviews, was not to shut down voting.
      - tremon 2y ago
        Anyone trying to make sense of Trump's words has as much credibility to me as people who interpret tea leaves, or the Bible. Judge his actions; trying to divine anything from his words is about as effective as chasing wild geese.
        blisterpeanuts 2y ago
        I judge every politician by their actions, not their words. In Trump's case, his words are more "salad-like" than most, but his actions generally speak pretty clearly.
- aqme28 2y ago
  What do you mean "What the hell happened?" The question is about how we handle the coming elections four years from now, not the previous one. If he's going to be a dictator it will only be possible when he's in power.
  - _heimdall 2y ago
    I was specifically talking about claims that Trump is going to end democracy though. There wouldn't be elections in four years, that's a moot point. By what the hell happened I mean what happened to those claims? Did people not believe then, or are they resigned to the election results meaning we just accept the end of democracy?
    - shigawire 2y ago
      >Did people not believe then, or are they resigned to the election results meaning we just accept the end of democracy? If I revolt against the government that is 100% breaking democracy. If I wait and see what the next admin does, that is maybe 50% (fake numbers) likely to break democracy. You can think DJT is bad for democracy and also think it is more bad to try to toss out an election he won.
      - _heimdall 2y ago
        > If I revolt against the government that is 100% breaking democracy. If you're revolting because democracy is already lost, or the loss is imminent, you weren't breaking it. > You can think DJT is bad for democracy and also think it is more bad to try to toss out an election he won. Not if you truly believe democracy is doomed with his election. I don't believe that, but if someone does I don't see how waiting for it to happen helps.
    - grey-area 2y ago
      There are often elections in dictatorships, as you may find out.
- dragontamer 2y ago
  Elon Musk literally held an illegal sweepstakes paying people to vote in Pennsylvania. And given Elon Musk's position in the new government, its clear that his sweepstakes has led to direct benefits from Trump. It was direct quid-pro-quo and no one is doing anything about it. The courts were too slow to stop the sweepstakes and now that Trump is in power, we all know Musk would be pardoned of this crime. So no one is bothering to prosecute. The election fraud already happened. Now tell me who the hell is going to punish the troublemakers?
- jmull 2y ago
  > For anyone that honestly believes that, why pack up and go home when Trump wins the election? You're wondering why people who are pro-democracy are respecting the outcome of the election?
  - _heimdall 2y ago
    Well yes, are people willing to accept a loophole that democracy is so important that you must respect one final election ending it?
    - jmull 2y ago
      If results of elections aren't respected then the democracy is already over. Pro-democracy people will want to find ways to strengthen or preserve democracy (or at least limit the damage) in the face of threats to it, not blow it up themselves.
dandanua 2y ago
It seems USA is completely blinded by some immaterial force. How can people not see all the blatant lie from Trump and his bootlickers? Why is USA refusing to fight (or at least help allies substantially) against Russia, which commits crimes on the level of Nazi Germany in WWII?
- valval 2y ago
  It’s of course always possible that you are the blind one. Maybe one day you’ll grow out of it.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- mistermann 2y ago
  > How can people not see all the blatant lie from Trump and his bootlickers? Not sure if you are serious, but the problem on both sides of the disagreement is caused by the illusory nature of consciousness, and is exacerbated the fact that our culture does not study that phenomenon despite how incredibly important it is. This is what people should be arguing over rather than yet another consequence of it.
  - mistermann 2y ago
    Not a popular topic in certain contexts, apologies.
- hedora 2y ago
  The US activity supported similar atrocities in Palestine, and there was bipartisan support for that. I don’t have an answer to your question.
- ActorNightly 2y ago
  >. How can people not see all the blatant lie from Trump and his bootlickers? Because the reality is, a good majority people in the USA have a very good life, even the lower class, contrary to what the media may have you believe. So when the majority doesn't show up to vote, its because they think it doesn't matter who is in charge. These are the people everyone should hold primarily responsible for whatever bad things happen. The MAGA type crowds are always going to exist in one shape or form, and its everyone's responsibility to vote so that the bad side doesn't take power.

_heimdall 2y ago

This was a pretty big talking point during the election, towards the end I didn't go a day without hearing about how Trump will end democracy or how democracy was on the ballot. What the hell happened? For anyone that honestly believes that, why pack up and go home when Trump wins the election?

NewLogic 2y ago
America spoke and said they wanted it, what more is there to be said? If there was marching in the streets, it would be torn to shreds by the online grift sphere.
- _heimdall 2y ago
  If I honestly believed democracy would be ended by the next leader I would be marching in the streets, or better yet finding a group forming a rebellion. Ending democracy is a very serious thing. It shouldn't have been used hollowly by either party, and if it wasn't hollow then people should be standing up to stop it.
  - ModernMech 2y ago
    We did stand up, that was the entire 2024 campaign. We really truly believe the guy who incited the insurrection in 2021 that ended the history of peaceful democratic transitions of power in the USA is going to do more of the same damage to democratic institutions in 2025. Given what happened on 1/6 I don’t know why you see that worry as hollow.
    - _heimdall 2y ago
      I see it as hollow mainly because the democratic party and many of its supporters seemed to go silent after the election. I can only speak for myself, but if I truly believed he would end democracy in a few short years I'd be doing whatever I could to stop it. I say it seems hollow because I just can't imagine it being a serious, real threat and also rolling over.
      - ModernMech 2y ago
        > I can only speak for myself, but if I truly believed he would end democracy in a few short years I'd be doing whatever I could to stop it We did do whatever we could to stop it. We tried every avenue available. We tried impeachment twice, but he was protected by his party. The first time they protected him for extorting a bribe from a foreign government. The second time they protected him for inciting an insurrection. We tried the DOJ but he was protected by a federal judge he appointed, and supreme court justices two of which he appointed granted him sweeping immunity from prosecution. We tried to constitutionally disqualify him from running on the basis he incited an insurrection, but again he was protected by judges he appointed. Our last recourse was to run on a pro-democracy candidate during the election but the people rejected her. So we tried everything. But the election was fair. He won. That's that. We tried everything else, and anyway at this point it's too late without resorting to a violent coup, which supporters of democracy won't do. There are no other pro-democratic avenues left to protect democracy from Trump. Sucks it turned out this way, but at least you can't say you weren't warned.
      - EnergyAmy 2y ago
        The missing piece of the puzzle is that the DNC does not represent the people, it represents corporations who are just fine with Trump. Your average person is very concerned and is likely to think that Trump does represent a very real danger to democracy. The corporate apparatus that is the DNC made some noise about it to see if they could rile people up into voting for them and that failed.
        ModernMech 2y ago
  - dragontamer 2y ago
    > or better yet finding a group forming a rebellion. You mean like the two assassination attempts vs Trump? Which only made Trump's power greater and consolidated more support? Aggressive actions literally make Trump stronger. That's literally failing to work and we're living in the fallout of that. I'm not sure how to stop Trump but inciting violence seems like the wrong answer to me. Besides, its the US Military. We all know that its impossible to actually rebel vs the Army. What do you want a rebellion to do? Grab a couple of AR15s while the Army literally brings in tanks? ----------- Aggression is a failing move. But so was a political campaign that tried to convince people of Trump's dangers. So that's that. Or are you seriously trying to bait people into arguing that more violence was the answer here? Did you literally forget the election already?
    - _heimdall 2y ago
      Aggression is often a failing move, yes. And I'm not saying we should go there. What I am saying is that I don't understand what happened to everyone claiming democracy would be over, and that if the threat is real I don't see marches solving it.
      - dragontamer 2y ago
        Because Aggression is a failing move. What more "marching" do you want? The only escalating point now is violence because all the marching from 2024, 2020 and all other years accomplished nothing. Indeed: even just "marching" in 2020 was apparently "too violent" as Black Lives Matter (a march to protect African American lives) somehow got twisted by Donald Trump and his politics into a "violent" march. I think it makes sense that people are cautious about the next steps. But what the hell are you wanting people to march for? To deny the election and cause a liberal Jan 6th event? What are you even talking about? Even if people did that, it'd only play to Donald Trump's persecution complex and he'd get more power anyway. And its not like anyone would be marching to force Biden or Kamala back into office, neither candidate is popular enough. ------ The actual move is to retreat from Federal level politics and hold firm at the State-level side. If the Federal Government is lost, the focus should be on more local bastions and defenses. The fact remains: the resistance wants to be peaceful and non-violent. You've taken away the voice of the peaceful ones by labeling them as violent at every turn. So we know marching doesn't work anymore. Its not like the movement is dead, its just resting for now as people figure out what the new plans are. But its clear that a direct assault vs this ideology isn't working.
- ActorNightly 2y ago
  To be fair, America said "it really doesn't matter who is president". Which is arguably worse.
ANewFormation 2y ago
Because it was mostly being astroturfed. Democracy obviously isn't going to end in any way, shape, or fashion under Trump. And so the organizations pushing these lies need to move onto the next lies to keep the rage and fear going. Maybe this time around it'll be Trump is secretly controlled by China - must be why he reversed the TikTok ban. His campaign is large enough that there's probably some guy in it, no more than a degree or two separation away, banging a Chinese spy a la Eric Swalwell. Tie it to Trump, start a new committee of absurdity and away we go. It'd actually provide some logic to banning TikTok which was just politically absurd when Trump would predictably reverse that, to much fanfare.
- drawkward 2y ago
  While i dont think Democracy will end under Trump, it is manifestly not obvious that it won't. The president-elect literally floated the idea that his voters wont ever have to vote again if he won.
  - blisterpeanuts 2y ago
    This was clarified on Snopes; he was referring to groups such as fundamentalist Christians who rarely vote, urging them to come out this one time and vote. Not very eloquently worded, perhaps, but certainly his intent, as explained by spokespeople and by himself in subsequent interviews, was not to shut down voting.
    - tremon 2y ago
      Anyone trying to make sense of Trump's words has as much credibility to me as people who interpret tea leaves, or the Bible. Judge his actions; trying to divine anything from his words is about as effective as chasing wild geese.
      - blisterpeanuts 2y ago
        I judge every politician by their actions, not their words. In Trump's case, his words are more "salad-like" than most, but his actions generally speak pretty clearly.
aqme28 2y ago
What do you mean "What the hell happened?" The question is about how we handle the coming elections four years from now, not the previous one. If he's going to be a dictator it will only be possible when he's in power.
- _heimdall 2y ago
  I was specifically talking about claims that Trump is going to end democracy though. There wouldn't be elections in four years, that's a moot point. By what the hell happened I mean what happened to those claims? Did people not believe then, or are they resigned to the election results meaning we just accept the end of democracy?
  - shigawire 2y ago
    >Did people not believe then, or are they resigned to the election results meaning we just accept the end of democracy? If I revolt against the government that is 100% breaking democracy. If I wait and see what the next admin does, that is maybe 50% (fake numbers) likely to break democracy. You can think DJT is bad for democracy and also think it is more bad to try to toss out an election he won.
    - _heimdall 2y ago
      > If I revolt against the government that is 100% breaking democracy. If you're revolting because democracy is already lost, or the loss is imminent, you weren't breaking it. > You can think DJT is bad for democracy and also think it is more bad to try to toss out an election he won. Not if you truly believe democracy is doomed with his election. I don't believe that, but if someone does I don't see how waiting for it to happen helps.
  - grey-area 2y ago
    There are often elections in dictatorships, as you may find out.
dragontamer 2y ago
Elon Musk literally held an illegal sweepstakes paying people to vote in Pennsylvania. And given Elon Musk's position in the new government, its clear that his sweepstakes has led to direct benefits from Trump. It was direct quid-pro-quo and no one is doing anything about it. The courts were too slow to stop the sweepstakes and now that Trump is in power, we all know Musk would be pardoned of this crime. So no one is bothering to prosecute. The election fraud already happened. Now tell me who the hell is going to punish the troublemakers?
jmull 2y ago
> For anyone that honestly believes that, why pack up and go home when Trump wins the election? You're wondering why people who are pro-democracy are respecting the outcome of the election?
- _heimdall 2y ago
  Well yes, are people willing to accept a loophole that democracy is so important that you must respect one final election ending it?
  - jmull 2y ago
    If results of elections aren't respected then the democracy is already over. Pro-democracy people will want to find ways to strengthen or preserve democracy (or at least limit the damage) in the face of threats to it, not blow it up themselves.

dandanua 2y ago

It seems USA is completely blinded by some immaterial force. How can people not see all the blatant lie from Trump and his bootlickers? Why is USA refusing to fight (or at least help allies substantially) against Russia, which commits crimes on the level of Nazi Germany in WWII?

valval 2y ago
It’s of course always possible that you are the blind one. Maybe one day you’ll grow out of it.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
mistermann 2y ago
> How can people not see all the blatant lie from Trump and his bootlickers? Not sure if you are serious, but the problem on both sides of the disagreement is caused by the illusory nature of consciousness, and is exacerbated the fact that our culture does not study that phenomenon despite how incredibly important it is. This is what people should be arguing over rather than yet another consequence of it.
- mistermann 2y ago
  Not a popular topic in certain contexts, apologies.
hedora 2y ago
The US activity supported similar atrocities in Palestine, and there was bipartisan support for that. I don’t have an answer to your question.
ActorNightly 2y ago
>. How can people not see all the blatant lie from Trump and his bootlickers? Because the reality is, a good majority people in the USA have a very good life, even the lower class, contrary to what the media may have you believe. So when the majority doesn't show up to vote, its because they think it doesn't matter who is in charge. These are the people everyone should hold primarily responsible for whatever bad things happen. The MAGA type crowds are always going to exist in one shape or form, and its everyone's responsibility to vote so that the bad side doesn't take power.