6 ms·

My dad was a military analyst in the Balkans in the 90s. I am telling this story second-hand, but I'll try to get it correct. While in Albania, my dad shared a

by qez2 2y ago

My dad was a military analyst in the Balkans in the 90s. I am telling this story second-hand, but I'll try to get it correct. While in Albania, my dad shared a taxi with an older Albania gentleman. The man recounted his time working in the Albanian military in the 60s. His platoon had constructed a large number of bunkers, more than any other platoon. The dictator Enver Hoxha was slated to visit, to give them an award for building the most bunkers in the whole country. When Enver arrived, he walked around, and looked at a bunch of the bunkers they had constructed. He pointed at the bunkers. "Look! You have not used enough rebar! Obviously, you are trying to jeopardize the security of our nation, by neglecting to use enough rebar! You are traitors to Albania!" He swiftly sentenced the entire platoon of young men straight to 30 years in prison, which they approximately served. This man, after serving this time, had just gotten freed from jail. The taxi was transporting him from the halfway house.

stuckkeys 2y ago
That is wild. Enver was a piece of work for sure.
- fractallyte 2y ago
  So was everyone who followed his directives...
  - black_puppydog 2y ago
    That's simply not true. That example should tell you that, if anything, a good part of their motivation was a healthy sense of self preservation. This is by the way what we're literally seeing play out in the US right now. Tim Cook, Zuck, all the other rich guys chipped in for the inauguration to signal their deference. Because they know Trump and Musk would remember if they didn't.
  - frereubu 2y ago
    If you're interested in why this happens, try reading some of The Gulag Archipelago by Alexander Solzhenitsyn. If the choice is comply or die, fine upstanding morals don't really come into play except in very rare cases. And even then, what good does getting shot for a minor detail do in the grand scheme of things? You're not going to spur a revolution to overthrow a dictator because you were shot for not following an order to the letter in a Siberian concentration camp.
    - teractiveodular 2y ago
      Vaclav Havel has a few things to say about that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_the_Powerless https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_the_Powerless
      - frereubu 2y ago
        I haven't read that, but I imagine I'd agree with most of it having read the precis. My beef was really with the idea that everyone who follows orders in that kind of a system is a "piece of work". I think that's holding everyone to an incredible high - and unrealistic - standard.
    - fractallyte 2y ago
      I have read it, and much more. That's why I wrote what I did: passive acceptance of a Führer's insanity leads to the kind of Stalinist nightmare that the Soviets experienced last century. (Yeah, I'm blending dictators: this scenario seems to be common to them all, throughout history.) Such behavior needs to be put down immediately, with a bullet to the head. I guarantee those soldiers were better armed than that POS dictator. Do I sound angry? Why, yes, I am. We need more individuals, not slaves.
      - frereubu 2y ago
        Interesting that you'd read that and much more (like me) and had a very different reaction. I came out of it feeling understanding for people caught up in such a cruel system. To be clear, not the stoolies or collaborators, but the vast majority of people who were swept up in a system that they had no control over. I just think it's human nature. Slightly hand-wavy figures here, but I feel like you have 10% of people who are bullies and will absolutely buy into the system, 10% of people who are brave and will try to fight somehow, and 80% of people who aren't either. And as much as I'd like to think you could tip the balance significantly in favour of the brave, I just don't think that's human nature, so I don't really feel like I can blame those people for just wanting to keep their heads down and survive. If you don't have it in you, you don't have it in you. My reading also taught me that when push comes to shove, many people aren't nearly as brave as they think they are. The Gulag Archipelago in particular was instructive about what happens to people when they're starved and worked to the bone. Any notion of humanity goes out of the window, and it's the airy-fairy "we should all share" people who die almost immediately.
lormayna 2y ago
A father of a guy that I know was an engineer and he was part of the team that designed the highway between Tirana and Valona. Enver decided to arrest all of them because they were conspiring against the state and the highway was just a landing area for US airplanes to invade the country. He was really paranoid about this stuff
- UltraSane 2y ago
  He seems more like a moron.
  - black_puppydog 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - skirge 2y ago
      for not invading Albania or what?
      - black_puppydog 2y ago
        for electing another moron president... twice!
  - fifticon 2y ago
    Good thing people are no longer electing such people to high office.
    - UltraSane 2y ago
      Trump is very stupid be he hasn't (so far) sentenced anyone to 30 years in prison for not using enough rebar.
- jajko 2y ago
  At one point, every third Albanian had either been interrogated by the Sigurimi or they had been incarcerated in labour camps, around 25k murdered [1] Albania was even within eastern communist block considered utter shithole run by mad paranoid guy. Well, he certainly was. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enver_Hoxha#Political_repression_and_emigration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enver_Hoxha#Political_repressi...
renewiltord 2y ago
This is the most terrifying part about China: they’re competent Communists. Until now, these authoritarian states have always ruined their best. The communists of old could never abide the exceptional[0]. Nowadays they’ve integrated the lessons of the West’s market economy. 0: the other side of the Kolmogorov option is that you want your geniuses silent
- InDubioProRubio 2y ago
  Thats the story they tell the world. They are just as inept, just as incompetent, but they had a free market engine that would pedal on, not because they enabled them but not handicapped them enough. Its more a incredible powerful horse (the Chinese people) saddled with a impossible useless drunk( the party) winning the race so far, while the drunk in the saddle brags loudly about what that horse can do. And now he decided to trade the horse in for booze.
  - rapsey 2y ago
    Economists say China needs to move to a consumer economy. The export model has run out of steam. But turning to a consumer economy is diametrically opposed to the communist party. Just like the soviets, their model works for a while but the inability to switch gears or relinquish any amount of control will be their doom.
    - jajko 2y ago
      Doom in which way? Russia is not going anywhere, population is in complete acceptance of current state (despite everybody complaining, but thats nothing new). Chinese seem the same, don't take some isolated protests from time to time in 1.5 billion population as sign of things breaking apart. They will be probably fine, whether we like it or not.
      - rapsey 2y ago
        You are equating the soviet union with Russia. Their economic model was quite different and caused mass famines and eventual collapse. As for going away, the demographic picture for both countries is horrific. China is in a recession and the one thing they need to do is the one thing Xi is diametrically opposed to and he calls all the shots.
rapsey 2y ago
In a communist country, never under any circumstances should you stand out. There are no rewards, only punishments.
- pjmlp 2y ago
  In any kind of authoritarian country, sadly this is coming back all over the place as fashion, in many countries where many folks voting are still old enough to remember how it used to be, unfortunately a minority. I say this as first child out of revolution days that ended a dictorship, and sees the rise of such parties.
- emchammer 2y ago
  I'm sorry, the tone of your comment makes it sound like it comes from a place of personal knowledge. Can you elaborate?
  - rapsey 2y ago
    I'm from a former European communist country.
  - wil421 2y ago
    “Show me the man and I’ll show you the crime.” - Beria If you get noticed the future might not turn out well for you.
varjag 2y ago
We used to live next to a tank division base in USSR. Once a conscript soldier was assigned with maintenance work on a tank. Trying to be helpful he attempted to remove laser rangefinder while the officer was away. But it being a two-person job he inevitably dropped and damaged it. He was court-martialed, got three years of prison and had the cost of the instrument withheld from his future income. The rangefinder cost was about 24000 rubles while the average Soviet monthly salary was ~160 at the time. Now this was not Balkans but it is always startling how fundamentally inhumane and atomized all Communist societies are, in very much the same way. Am convinced one could transplant a Cuban to Romania or a Bulgarian to North Korea and save for the language and cuisine they'd instinctively know how the things work. How you should get hold of your groceries, when it's a good idea to bribe, who is important in informal way, what you shouldn't say and just how much effort you should put into your work. This was truly global, Borg-like culture like nothing before.
- StefanBatory 2y ago
  And yet to this day we have many Westerners who idealise communism :|
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

by qez2 2y ago

stuckkeys 2y ago

That is wild. Enver was a piece of work for sure.

fractallyte 2y ago
So was everyone who followed his directives...
- black_puppydog 2y ago
  That's simply not true. That example should tell you that, if anything, a good part of their motivation was a healthy sense of self preservation. This is by the way what we're literally seeing play out in the US right now. Tim Cook, Zuck, all the other rich guys chipped in for the inauguration to signal their deference. Because they know Trump and Musk would remember if they didn't.
- frereubu 2y ago
  If you're interested in why this happens, try reading some of The Gulag Archipelago by Alexander Solzhenitsyn. If the choice is comply or die, fine upstanding morals don't really come into play except in very rare cases. And even then, what good does getting shot for a minor detail do in the grand scheme of things? You're not going to spur a revolution to overthrow a dictator because you were shot for not following an order to the letter in a Siberian concentration camp.
  - teractiveodular 2y ago
    Vaclav Havel has a few things to say about that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_the_Powerless https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_the_Powerless
    - frereubu 2y ago
      I haven't read that, but I imagine I'd agree with most of it having read the precis. My beef was really with the idea that everyone who follows orders in that kind of a system is a "piece of work". I think that's holding everyone to an incredible high - and unrealistic - standard.
  - fractallyte 2y ago
    I have read it, and much more. That's why I wrote what I did: passive acceptance of a Führer's insanity leads to the kind of Stalinist nightmare that the Soviets experienced last century. (Yeah, I'm blending dictators: this scenario seems to be common to them all, throughout history.) Such behavior needs to be put down immediately, with a bullet to the head. I guarantee those soldiers were better armed than that POS dictator. Do I sound angry? Why, yes, I am. We need more individuals, not slaves.
    - frereubu 2y ago
      Interesting that you'd read that and much more (like me) and had a very different reaction. I came out of it feeling understanding for people caught up in such a cruel system. To be clear, not the stoolies or collaborators, but the vast majority of people who were swept up in a system that they had no control over. I just think it's human nature. Slightly hand-wavy figures here, but I feel like you have 10% of people who are bullies and will absolutely buy into the system, 10% of people who are brave and will try to fight somehow, and 80% of people who aren't either. And as much as I'd like to think you could tip the balance significantly in favour of the brave, I just don't think that's human nature, so I don't really feel like I can blame those people for just wanting to keep their heads down and survive. If you don't have it in you, you don't have it in you. My reading also taught me that when push comes to shove, many people aren't nearly as brave as they think they are. The Gulag Archipelago in particular was instructive about what happens to people when they're starved and worked to the bone. Any notion of humanity goes out of the window, and it's the airy-fairy "we should all share" people who die almost immediately.

lormayna 2y ago

A father of a guy that I know was an engineer and he was part of the team that designed the highway between Tirana and Valona. Enver decided to arrest all of them because they were conspiring against the state and the highway was just a landing area for US airplanes to invade the country. He was really paranoid about this stuff

UltraSane 2y ago
He seems more like a moron.
- black_puppydog 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - skirge 2y ago
    for not invading Albania or what?
    - black_puppydog 2y ago
      for electing another moron president... twice!
- fifticon 2y ago
  Good thing people are no longer electing such people to high office.
  - UltraSane 2y ago
    Trump is very stupid be he hasn't (so far) sentenced anyone to 30 years in prison for not using enough rebar.
jajko 2y ago
At one point, every third Albanian had either been interrogated by the Sigurimi or they had been incarcerated in labour camps, around 25k murdered [1] Albania was even within eastern communist block considered utter shithole run by mad paranoid guy. Well, he certainly was. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enver_Hoxha#Political_repression_and_emigration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enver_Hoxha#Political_repressi...

renewiltord 2y ago

This is the most terrifying part about China: they’re competent Communists. Until now, these authoritarian states have always ruined their best. The communists of old could never abide the exceptional[0]. Nowadays they’ve integrated the lessons of the West’s market economy. 0: the other side of the Kolmogorov option is that you want your geniuses silent

InDubioProRubio 2y ago
Thats the story they tell the world. They are just as inept, just as incompetent, but they had a free market engine that would pedal on, not because they enabled them but not handicapped them enough. Its more a incredible powerful horse (the Chinese people) saddled with a impossible useless drunk( the party) winning the race so far, while the drunk in the saddle brags loudly about what that horse can do. And now he decided to trade the horse in for booze.
- rapsey 2y ago
  Economists say China needs to move to a consumer economy. The export model has run out of steam. But turning to a consumer economy is diametrically opposed to the communist party. Just like the soviets, their model works for a while but the inability to switch gears or relinquish any amount of control will be their doom.
  - jajko 2y ago
    Doom in which way? Russia is not going anywhere, population is in complete acceptance of current state (despite everybody complaining, but thats nothing new). Chinese seem the same, don't take some isolated protests from time to time in 1.5 billion population as sign of things breaking apart. They will be probably fine, whether we like it or not.
    - rapsey 2y ago
      You are equating the soviet union with Russia. Their economic model was quite different and caused mass famines and eventual collapse. As for going away, the demographic picture for both countries is horrific. China is in a recession and the one thing they need to do is the one thing Xi is diametrically opposed to and he calls all the shots.

rapsey 2y ago

In a communist country, never under any circumstances should you stand out. There are no rewards, only punishments.

pjmlp 2y ago
In any kind of authoritarian country, sadly this is coming back all over the place as fashion, in many countries where many folks voting are still old enough to remember how it used to be, unfortunately a minority. I say this as first child out of revolution days that ended a dictorship, and sees the rise of such parties.
emchammer 2y ago
I'm sorry, the tone of your comment makes it sound like it comes from a place of personal knowledge. Can you elaborate?
- rapsey 2y ago
  I'm from a former European communist country.
- wil421 2y ago
  “Show me the man and I’ll show you the crime.” - Beria If you get noticed the future might not turn out well for you.

varjag 2y ago

We used to live next to a tank division base in USSR. Once a conscript soldier was assigned with maintenance work on a tank. Trying to be helpful he attempted to remove laser rangefinder while the officer was away. But it being a two-person job he inevitably dropped and damaged it. He was court-martialed, got three years of prison and had the cost of the instrument withheld from his future income. The rangefinder cost was about 24000 rubles while the average Soviet monthly salary was ~160 at the time. Now this was not Balkans but it is always startling how fundamentally inhumane and atomized all Communist societies are, in very much the same way. Am convinced one could transplant a Cuban to Romania or a Bulgarian to North Korea and save for the language and cuisine they'd instinctively know how the things work. How you should get hold of your groceries, when it's a good idea to bribe, who is important in informal way, what you shouldn't say and just how much effort you should put into your work. This was truly global, Borg-like culture like nothing before.

StefanBatory 2y ago
And yet to this day we have many Westerners who idealise communism :|

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]