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Yes I'm aware this trope is applied to every communist country that's ever existed. I've never been in a conversation where it added anything. It's like saying

Yes I'm aware this trope is applied to every communist country that's ever existed. I've never been in a conversation where it added anything. It's like saying the Pope isn't Christian. It's really a hidden statement about gatekeeping.

BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago
It’s not a hidden statement about anything. China is not communist; communist means something. North Korea isn’t a democratic republic; that also means something. We can go into definitions if you want, but I think this is trivial to observe for China. Edit: I think the distinction is important because the US has a tendency to label things communist before it goes to war with them, whether cold or hot.
beepbooptheory 2y ago
But then how can you use it the other way around, to say that it is bad?
- ants_everywhere 2y ago
  I think the same way we can talk about monkeys or squirrels. It's a family tree of related ideas. But there's no official checklist of features it has to have. To give an example for comparison, a lot of people want to say socialism is about workers controlling the means of production. But that doesn't come close to covering all of the things that were called socialism that existed before someone proposed that definition. With communism it's similar but at least I'm not aware of any one jingle that people are pushing as the one true definition. But there are definitely lots of people who want to say they understand Marx better than everyone else and the Soviet Union doesn't count as communist because of x. China doesn't count as communist because of y. Etc etc. it's a way to preserve an identity as a communist without having to admit there are any downsides. For what it's worth I'd argue that capitalism is even less well defined and I've heard it used to describe every economic system that's ever existed including all communist countries.
  - BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago
    >it's a way to preserve an identity as a communist without having to admit there are any downsides. That’s not what I did, and I’m not a communist. I’m specifically talking about China because people use the label, deeply incorrectly, to portray them as a threatening other, as though they work in a super different way to us and threaten our way of life. > But there are definitely lots of people who want to say they understand Marx better than everyone else and the Soviet Union doesn't count as communist because of x. China doesn't count as communist because of y. Etc etc. Im no scholar, but I’m pretty damn certain you can’t have a strong free market, alongside the consequent wealthy capitalists, under communism. Words have meanings, and that’s not what anyone or their mother would think of as communism.
maeil 2y ago
Guess the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is also democratic then. See, names are meaningless.

BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago

It’s not a hidden statement about anything. China is not communist; communist means something. North Korea isn’t a democratic republic; that also means something. We can go into definitions if you want, but I think this is trivial to observe for China. Edit: I think the distinction is important because the US has a tendency to label things communist before it goes to war with them, whether cold or hot.

beepbooptheory 2y ago

But then how can you use it the other way around, to say that it is bad?

ants_everywhere 2y ago
I think the same way we can talk about monkeys or squirrels. It's a family tree of related ideas. But there's no official checklist of features it has to have. To give an example for comparison, a lot of people want to say socialism is about workers controlling the means of production. But that doesn't come close to covering all of the things that were called socialism that existed before someone proposed that definition. With communism it's similar but at least I'm not aware of any one jingle that people are pushing as the one true definition. But there are definitely lots of people who want to say they understand Marx better than everyone else and the Soviet Union doesn't count as communist because of x. China doesn't count as communist because of y. Etc etc. it's a way to preserve an identity as a communist without having to admit there are any downsides. For what it's worth I'd argue that capitalism is even less well defined and I've heard it used to describe every economic system that's ever existed including all communist countries.
- BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago
  >it's a way to preserve an identity as a communist without having to admit there are any downsides. That’s not what I did, and I’m not a communist. I’m specifically talking about China because people use the label, deeply incorrectly, to portray them as a threatening other, as though they work in a super different way to us and threaten our way of life. > But there are definitely lots of people who want to say they understand Marx better than everyone else and the Soviet Union doesn't count as communist because of x. China doesn't count as communist because of y. Etc etc. Im no scholar, but I’m pretty damn certain you can’t have a strong free market, alongside the consequent wealthy capitalists, under communism. Words have meanings, and that’s not what anyone or their mother would think of as communism.

maeil 2y ago

Guess the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is also democratic then. See, names are meaningless.